@Fb: I think that most raids will still have a tree. My concern is that raids that optimize to the extreme could end up discounting a Tree’s aura if it turns out that Improved Devotion is a frequently taken talent. From everything I’ve seen, though, it looks like most Paladins are looking at the ToL aura as an excuse NOT to take IDA, though, so all is well. Best of luck with Illy-beans!

my guild is a casual turned attempt at progression thats working on illidan atm, and let me see if i can try to better phrase what i was saying. guilds like mine see a lot of content right now but do have to try to take less skilled people to fill some roles, and often times just go without, we raid with two shaman usually, thats clearly not the model of todays raiding at high end, i think eliminating this will give more “casual yet progression guilds” an easier time to try to get to the content that only the elitist min maxers are now. my guild, for example wont turn into that KJ killing maxing everything out mentality overnight, and in the mean time, it will be easier for us to make better raids because we wont be stuck to adhering to such a strict raid make up model of today. easier model = more chance to make good raid make up, even if it isnt the “absolute bleeding edge content maxing of abilities” kind of guild.

its funny you mention trying sunwell with the laid back attitude, i’m actually not looking forward to it much but when we kill illidan i am sure we will be trying just that. and its gonna be paaaainnnnfullll.

I don’t have any concrete info regarding CoE, EnM, or Ebon Plague. The guy who brought it up is a very knowledgeable min/maxing moonkin on the WoW Druid forums named Murmur. He says you can see the benefit of the spell penetration looking at Old WWS with and without the curses, and I half to assume that it is on BC content or earlier. Therefore I don’t think it is a buff to Affliction Locks.

I’m not a hundred percent sure he is correct, but he provides a decent arguement and he is some one that I trust so I some what forgive is lack of concrete proof.

Of course all of this could change. In fact, we have very little information right now. Blizzard is changing a lot of the talent trees to account of this change and we won’t know 100% what they are going to do until we see a new build. The problem is we are seeing the huge changes and then filling in the gaps using our knowledge of the game as it is currently. So this whole CoE vs EnM debate could be moot if they add the spell pen to EnM or if they take it away from CoE.

So I am not so patiently awaiting the new beta build. That is when the real panicing can begin. (I’m so optimistic.)

Graylos last blog post..Raid Stacking in WotLK

One thing to note is that I don’t anticipate Moonkin tanking anything in the expansion; they seem to want to move away from having Warlocks be magical tanks, and I can see a strong correlation between Warlocks tanking and Moonkin tanking. Anything that Polymorphs could be tanked by a Bear, anyway.

Thanks for the great comments!

@Graylo: Thanks very much for the clarification about Earth and Moon. Obviously, I wasn’t aware of all the dynamics surrounding it and its competing buffs, Ebon Plaguebringer and Curse of Elements. When you say that some bosses can have their resistances reduced by CoE, do you mean TBC bosses or new WotLK bosses? In other words, could this be a new dynamic they’re introducing to try to give Warlocks some preferentiality (they’re loudly complaining to be among the hardest hit, especially Affliction).

I really enjoyed your point about 10 million players being able to out-group-think a team of a hundred developers. I’ll be sure to add a link back to your perspective on these changes.

It actually may not be as good as it appears. I haven’t seen it first hand but there is apperently a debate over which is better Ebon Plaguebringer or Curse of Elements. Ebon Plaguebringer would act much like Earth and Moon in that it provides a flat 13% increase in Spell Damage. Curse of elements on the other hand offers an increase in spell damage but also a reduction in spell resistances. And some of the people on the Beta were saying that an untalented CoE is better than Ebon Plaguebringer because the resistance reduction represent about 4% or 5% increase in spell damage taken by the boss.

If this is the case then Earth and Moon is a useless talent because Curse of Elements would be clearly superior.

I had always heard that you couldn’t reduce a Bosses resistances and that was why Spell Pen was such a bad stat. However, according to a couple of Moonkin on the WoW forums Bosses to have some resistances that can be reduced to the minimum by Curse of Elements. They say the evedence is in old WWS reports. Apperently you can see a noticable uptick in partial resistances when CoE isn’t on the boss. In other cases they had CoE up on the boss but not CoS, and apperently the parcial resists of Shadow and Arcane spells was higher then that of Fire and Frost spells.

I don’t have any evidence of this being true, but it is coming from knowledgable people that I trust.

I like you think this change was made with the right intentions, but will ultimately have the opposite affect. They’ve taken almost all of the uniqueness out the classes. This changes opens a whole can of worms that I don’t think they are expecting.

There is one thing I don’t think blizzard is considering. Employees at blizzard definately know more about game design then most of its players. However, as I said in my blog, the collective mind of 10 million players is smarter then the collective mind of several hundred bizzard employees. There will be loop holes, we as players will find them, and this will ultimately throw the game out of balance.

Graylos last blog post..Raid Stacking in WotLK

The problem I see with this changes, is that practically all classes bring good utility to raid, making hybrid classes less valuable, given that their utility is not unique anymore.

Given these changes, pure dps classes such as mages and warlocks, provide great utility, great dps and on top of that, have their own unique uses in raids, they have their own nice role, such as tanking in fights in Grull/SSC. Hunters have aggro management and kiting, things that are very important in fighths like Vash and Hyjal.

So, where does this leave hybrid dps classes now that their unique contributions to a raid are not unique anymore?

What can a moonkin, a shadow priest, or a retribution paladin can provide to a fight that only they can do? What are their niche roles?

I think its OK to try to balance class/spec utility and dps, but most importantly is to make significant improvements in the playstyle of each spec, making the game more fun and less monotonous; and in this area is where I think balance druids, shadow priests and retribution paladins are being left out. They should provide more than just static utility and dps.

I think these changes don’t affect healers and tanks as much as dps, because each healer has its own unique healing style, and each tank has its own advantages, depending on the dynamics of each fight. However, hybrid dps classes are very affected by these changes.

For example, there should be more fights where a boss polymorphs its target, where a Moonkin Offtank could be useful.

As a Balance Druid, I’m worried with the current state of beta. Balance new abilities just increase dps, but don’t improve the playstyle of the spec.

An example of improving the playstle is to change Typhoon to: “Summons a typhoon for 3 seconds, knocking back enemies who come near it 5 yards and causes damage to them. Party and raid members inside the typhoon area take 10% reduced damage.”. This would make the spell useful for splash damage, and could also help a Paly in AoE tanking. It would also be a great defense against melee in PvP.

What are your thoughts on this issue?