SexyMap is a fantastic addon that improves the look of your UI by leveraging existing, in-game textures and spell effects to create beautiful map skins. Learn how to create your own, Druid-themed map in this tutorial by Korryna!
Death Knight Degeneration to Convert HoTs to DoTs
Published on July 10, 2008 by Phaelia 
PvP 
25 Comments
MMO Champion recently posted lists of the “leaked” talents and abilities for several classes, including the Death Knight. I wanted to point out one ability in particular, from their Unholy school:
 |
|
This ability would seem to be targetted at Restoration Druids, converting our heals over time into a disease that causes damage over time instead. Because it can stack three times, it can consume an entire Lifebloom stack. While it isn’t clear whether the conversion of the final stack would cause it to bloom for its direct heal component, having Lifebloom running on a target at three stacks gives the DK the potential to get three stacks of this disease on your target, so I can see a general shift away from the use of multi-stack Lifebloom in PvP and an increased reliance on single stack (if it does bloom on conversion, it could end up as a wash) and our new direct heal, Nourish.
If you have any doubt that this ability wasn’t intended entirely as a counter to Restoration Druids, note that its original effect also included making your target “immune” to heals over time for 21 seconds. It looks like Death Knights might be intended to serve as the anti-Druid class since we are the only healing class without the ability to remove Disease. That’s bad news for us given the plethora of Death Knights likely to emerge after the release of Wrath.
On a happier note, you can check out their summary of the new Druid talents and abilities here.
Related Posts
25 Comments
Trackbacks
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
Wow, that’s rude.
It doesn’t convert HoTs to DoTs, but if they do have HoTs it removes them and increases the damage of the disease. It doesn’t say how much it increases the damage by, but it’s not a 100% conversion of heal to damage.
Would this not then mean that the recipient of the now corrupted HoTs should just right click remove the buffs (now useless – tooltip only says it removes the healing effect, not the buff itself) to prevent the disease getting increased? Unless the corrupting of the HoTs converts them to a Debuff I guess..?
To be honest, I’m not too surprised to see something like this. There has been alot of discussion recently about how overpowered Druid’s HoTs are.
Personally, I’m not sure how this is exactly fair to Druid healers. Our main way of healing is through HoT. Unless Death Knights get some ability that counteracts instant heals, they really gimp only Druids which doesn’t make sense to me.
I’m not going to freak out until we see all the abilities of course, but this seems fishy to me.
Well, one part of the “On a happier note” is not really happy: I don’t see any new rank on Tranquility. Considering that the tranquility talent also nerfed to 50% threat, or wipe-saver of 5 mans is really nerfed.
However this is minor nuissance compared to the buff given by the fact that we can have Nature’s grace and Tree form at the same time.
Stacks up to three times – that’s one I wasn’t necessarily expecting, but I was also expecting it to not apply a debuff. Thought it would take the existing heals and let them tick out while doing damage – I don’t see why a corrupted lifebloom should last for 21 seconds unless Blizzard suddenly wants me to stack lifebloom on 14 people during raids.
Well, I read it wrong, thinking it did 182 damage every 3 seconds for 21 seconds. That added with the ‘significantly’ thing scared me. Rereading it, that’s at least one relief on how much damage it might end up doing.
So, it doesn’t look like it will refresh itself while ticking, which means that after the death knight applies it you can still HoT up the target. However, it is also instant and does not have any cooldown according to that. If a death knight is on someone it completely negates the majority of our healing. Sure, they’re not going to be doing as much damage if they’re having to focus on that, but who cares if the opposing member can not be healed reasonably at all, considering that as WotLK comes out we’ll have a group based HoT and a flash heal that only works well if you already have HoTs on the target?
Personally, I don’t think the talent is going to make it too far without some sort of modifications, like a cooldown of some sort, unless the lifebloom counts as blooming when it becomes corrupted.
That’s bad news for us given the plethora of Death Knights likely to emerge after the release of Wrath.
Am I the only one who’s like terrified of the wave of Death Knights that will roll over all realms? Just like with blood elves, I will likely stay away from one for a very long time.
I really hope they get the balancing right for DKs, especially as a counter to such a popular spec as resto druids.
Kadomis last blog post..Karazhan for beginning tanks: Attumen
> Personally, I don’t think the talent is going to make it too far without some sort of modifications, like a cooldown of some sort, unless the lifebloom counts as blooming when it becomes corrupted.
There is actually a limitation of this spell: it consumes 1 Unholy rune. Deathknight has 6 runes (and some of them might be not Unholy, though this is possible too), and runes have their cooldown.
As for final bloom — it does bloom on dispelling, so I think it should be blooming on Degeneration too.
If you ignore the conversion bit for a second, what is it? It’s an instant strike that applies a disease debuff, which stacks to 3. A bit like Deadly Poison. So at 3-stack, it does 182*3 over 21s.
Now the corruption bit. “Any existing heal over time spells on the target become corrupted”. That implies to me that a single application clears ALL hots. I don’t believe the debuff will clear hots each tick (like abolish poison), however if you choose to cast more, you’re opening yourself for another smack!
I imagine the ‘drastic increase’ will mean a double coefficient or damage, not an actual conversion.
Note I haven’t played the beta or anything, so this is only my reading of the tooltip.
Eldrs last blog post..Best Practices
Given that we’re the only healing class with no effective counter to our healing outside of being CC’d/silenced.. (no CS/interrupt).. it makes sense to see a spell that actually will give us a weakness.
I applaude it.
@Crythia: It takes a HoT and increases the amount of damage done by the disease effect over time? Same difference!
@Snarla: You’re correct; it converts the buff to a debuff so that it can’t be removed.
@Azatharis: I agree; it seems like a deliberate destruction of the Druid healing style that will have little to no effect on anyone else (Priest Renew, I guess, but they can just remove the disease anyway). One thing to keep in mind is that the ability has already been nerfed twice, so this isn’t necessarily its final state.
@Ghostboci: No worries! Wotlkwiki.info has two new ranks of Tranquility listed:
Tranquility (Rank 6): 2130 mana, 2598 healing every 2 sec.
Tranquility (Rank 7): 2495 mana, 3035 healing every 2 sec.
@Nilianil: Good point about the Lifebloom only lasting 7 seconds. Converting it to something negative that lasts for 21 seems like a kick in the pants!
@Kadomi: Well I know I was saying that I wouldn’t touch DKs with a ten-foot pole, but in the process of researching this Degeneration nonsense I have to admit that my interest has been piqued by some of their very cool sounding talents. I may have to exorcise my evil side on a DK instead of my Warlock.
Mr. Phae and I are contemplating leveling a pair up together. I suggested playing two that looked like brother and sister, but he wants to play a GNOME because of the Escape Artist racial. /Sigh
@Eldr: That is an interesting — and depressing — interpretation of the tooltip. I understand how it might read that way, but I guess I’m hoping it won’t be that bad.
@Sorayn: Not to say that Druid healing isn’t very powerful in 2v2 Arena, but it tanks seriously in 5v5 and even struggles to keep up in 3v3. The HPS of our HoTs simply can’t keep up with the DPS output of multiple characters. Whereas we don’t have an ability like Bubble or Pain Suppresion. I think this is going to KILL Resto Druids that face a DK in anything other than 2v2.
On the bright side all the new death knight are going to want healers for the 5-mans.
Along with the question of whether it activates the bloom, I wonder if Degeneration’s corruption component is considered a dispel effect. I doubt it… but if so, Resto Druids might at least have some resistance to it, through the Subtlety talent.
I’ve had sort of a bad feeling about Death Knights, ever since they were announced. Until now, it was more of a gloomy undertow… but I guess I finally have a concrete reason to dislike them!
@Tone
I can’t say I loved the idea either. Making a dark/shadow/evil knight class is fine, but ever since it was deemed a “Hero class” I was kicking stuff. Not that it will necessarily be ultra powerful, but the very idea that you start a class and it’s not level one irks me. I think that factor alone will mean it (and any other hero classes) will have a tendency to get special treatment in the future. It also means Blizzard doesn’t really care too much for keeping new things up to date with old content. They got out of balancing them for the first 55 levels.
The trend in games where some classes have to be unlocked in some way is that those classes tend to be special or more powerful than their parent versions, and they’re often made so unintentionally. I don’t think Blizzard will fall into this, but it’s of reasonable concern to me.
I won’t mind seeing less rogues around, though. At least it’ll help spread out the ‘look at me I’m so dark and awesome’ crowd.
Class, meet counter-class. Honest resto druids will admit that in their current state they are painfully overpowered (and yes, I do have a 70 resto druid).
They’re also reputedly adding random damage (spikes projecting or some nonsense) to arena pillars in the xpac. Resto druids are looking set to become like warlocks: no longer totally OP, but still remarkably good in the hands of a skilled player.
I’m all about a Death Knight bank alt. Unless they’re really, really irresistable I doubt I’d get over my distaste for melee enough to enjoy one.
Noxs last blog post..Fact: Noxie needs a new job
I understand the RPS aspect of classes and counter classes. It doesn’t mean I have to like it in any way whatsoever, and I do not. However, in a game where there’s different classes and not everyone is the same it is by far one of the easier ways to ensure some sort of balance, so while I don’t like it I can’t point fingers at Blizzard and say they’re some horrible company, so I won’t.
I will stand by my belief that resto druids are not as overpowered as half the entire world thinks simply because dealing with druids is different than dealing with all other healers which rely on casting times. I’m sorry we’re not all EQ clerics. I do think they’re currently overpowered, but I think the bigger aspect is that it’s combined with resto druids being very annoying to face, and annoyance always gets to people. If someone’s doing more harm to you but it’s not in an annoying way, they’ll often be overlooked compared to the guy not doing as much but just really getting on your nerves.
Painfully overpowered is a stretch, unless your life is 2v2.
Nilianil: I kind of like the idea of having higher-level characters that are unlockable. Plus, the fact that they only have to balance them for lvl 55+ means they have less opportunity to screw it up. =)
Nox: I like the idea of a Death Knight bank alt too! That way I don’t have to level up my current bank alt to get max Enchanting to disenchant the green trash I pick up in Outland!
To elaborate a bit, I think what I don’t like about Death Knights is that they feel very artificial to me. The higher starting level certainly doesn’t help that perception. But it’s also a matter of how they fit into the game. I’m trying to reserve judgement until the expansion actually arrives and has some time to settle. But based on what I know, I’m just worried that the Death Knight (and maybe other future hero classes) are going to serve as Blizzard’s ghost-faced enforcers… a misguided attempt to “fix”" problems with the game that they haven’t found any other way of addressing (without making existing classes angry).
For example, there’s a problem of not enough people playing tanks. Part of Blizzard’s solution is to make this new tank class, but to give it a new twist and more of an edge. The DK may draw more people in to try tanking, but I personally feel that the tank shortage is more about players than classes. I think it would be better addressed in changes to the player experience of gameplay, not class. But the gameplay is highly-engrained, so I understand that it’s a very hard sell.
There’s also the problem of Resto Druid representation in arenas. The fundamental nature of Druids (agile mobility and HoTs) happens to be very effective in parts of the arena system. So along with other changes, it looks like Death Knights will be able to help shut that down. I can see where they’re coming from with this. In a way, it’s smart because it seems like a single DK would greatly counter a Druid in 2v2, a little less so in 3v3, and much less so in 5v5. But personally, I think a more creative solution would be to reevaluate the arena playstyle itself, and come up with something better. Resto Druids are not really overpowered – they’re just particularly well-suited to an artificial environment of 4 people stuck in a gladiator pit, trying to kill each other.
It makes sense that dedicated PvP players will be drawn to a healing class that allows them to leverage their skill and be quick on their feet (and paws!). Changes like this may have the desired outcome that Blizzard wants. But I think it’s also very risky. What will happen when arena players realize that Resto Druids are now a liability? They’ll stop playing them, and suddenly Druids will be underrepresented and clearly “in need of buffs.” Relentlessly meddling with class balance for PvP has come to feel like treating the symptoms, rather than the underlying illness. Death Knights are a whole new class, and so they’re a whole new batch of meddling. 
Again, they just feel very artificial.
But despite my criticism, I’m not really that worried. I’m sure whatever Blizzard does will work out fine (or be adjusted afterward to work out fine!). And to be honest: from a game-mechanics standpoint, there are actually some aspects of Death Knights that do seem really interesting to me, but I doubt I’d ever get over the ‘darkness and disease’ vibe. It’s just not me. I’m more of a ‘sunshine and tree hugs’ guy, so I suspect I’ll just stick with Druids for now.
On the other hand, a class that spams diseases is good for Shaman’s viability in PvP. I can hear the cries to nerf Disease Cleansing Totem, now.
No, Resto Druids aren’t all that overpowered. They have a great set of tools to work with in 2v2 and BGs. They do ok in 3v3, but not exceptional, and they do poorly in 5v5. Even in 2v2, supposedly the place where Resto Druids dominate, Disc. Priests perform almost as well. A 2v2 team isn’t automatically winning just because there is a Resto Druid on their team.
That being said, I’m really unconcerned about this. It adds a new element to game play, that’s all. What used to work for Druids may not work as well any more, at least under certain circumstances.
@Tone
I don’t find the class quite as artificial as you, perhaps because of a different outlook.
Blizzard isn’t just creating a new tanking class, there are significant changes coming to the old ones. While we don’t know what Paladins are getting, we’re seeing many current complaints for Druids and Warriors being addressed. So, at least from where I stand, the DK appears to be merely one facet of a larger plan to fix tanking.
@Phae
Personally, I’m hoping that Degeneration is part of a larger scheme to make Resto Druids more useful across all levels of Arena, rather than simply overpowered in one venue and increasingly underpowered in the others.
MeanderingMinds last blog post..Seabass 2008
@MeanderingMind
Thanks for the feedback. I don’t want to sound too negative – you’re definitely right in saying that Blizzard is doing a lot of other work on existing tanking classes (and maybe even the group content itself). I’m pretty enthusiastic about some of the potential goodies for Warriors and Druids, and didn’t mean to imply that Death Knights are Blizzard’s idea of a “solution.” Rather, my concern is that the players who will most benefit from all these changes are those who already play tanks. Maybe improving the classes themselves will reduce the barrier for some players, but I’m worried that it’s not the classes that are the biggest problem – it’s the tanking concept itself.
The majority of players either don’t want to play that kind of role, or simply can’t because the characters they’re invested in are not capable of it. What I would prefer to see is a re-evaluation of the tank/dps/healer dynamic. Instead of a standard 5-person group requiring 1 tank, 3 dps, and a healer (all fighting more against aggro tables than badguys), why not tune the content and gameplay so that groups can be formed more loosely, and empower all characters to better take care of themselves and each other in a fight. There would still be reason to put together a good team, but it would be more about having a good mix of offense, defense, utility, and healing. There’s nothing heroic to me about 1 person doing all the “fighting” while 3 people do all the “killing” (trying very hard not to let the targets notice that they’re being killed!). But this is the highly-engrained gameplay I was referring to. It’s easy for me to call for change,
and maybe I’m the only person who finds this convention to be totally lame, but I think it would make group play more exciting and would greatly reduce the “shortages” of tanks and healers.
It might also ruin the game.
I probably haven’t thought it all the way through…
Hmm, I see possibilities for mischief in world PvP and Battlegrounds with two priests and a druid.
Priest 1 “I am nice, let me mind control you so my friends can’t hurt you.”
Druid “I am also nice, let me stack some nice heals on you.”
Priest 2 “Actually, after some consultation the three of us have decided we’re not so nice after all. That’s why I just MCed your deathknight friend and turned those HOTs into a disease.”
@Wynn: True, and now we’ll have a standard rez!
@Nilianil: I’m with you; I hate the fact that one class above all the others gets to start at level 55. In my opinion, they’re going to have to allow ALL classes to work that way at some point. Guild Wars has something similar, actually, where you can create a maximum level character if all you want to do is PvP with it.
@Nox: I am not painfully overpowered. It feels … sooo …. goooood.
And I haven’t decided whether I will seriously play my DK, although Mr. Phae and I are talking about leveling a brother/sister pair for fun.
@Azatharis: I don’t know how much attention Blizzard pays to pre-maximum level balancing anymore. Especially with the increased emphasis on Arenas and competitive PvP, they have little reason to concern themselves with OP abilities available to level 30 characters.
@Tone: Interesting point about Subtlety providing some resistance to Degeneration. The idea makes me suspect that it isn’t considered a dispel after all.
I think you’re right about the motivation of many people rolling DKs. The very description of a Death Knight doesn’t call out to people wanting to play the generous role of a tank. Instead, I think you’ll see DPS Warriors and Rogues rerolling DKs en masse. Warlocks, too.
Interestingly, the change to the Healer/Tank/DPS dynamic is something Mr. Phae has talked to me about many, many times. He thinks games should operate more the way that traditional RP games do in that “tank” characters don’t taunt mobs but instead position themselves so that they’re a target. I personally really like playing a healer and support character (Bards were always my favorite D&D characters), so I’m not sure I’d be too keen on such a drastic re-envisionment of the genre.
@MeanderingMind: I hope you’re right. I think I’d prefer to be more viable in 5v5 where there is less stress on one healer to keep everyone — including herself — alive. Certainly the armor increase in Tree of Life will help … but only if the form can no longer be banishable by Warlocks.
@Ramalina: Haha.
Think about this, if they use both degenerations, theyll use up the unholy runes they have, because a blizzard update states that they might not do the switching runes thing on account that they might be overpowered or underpowered, like this they are equally balanced, but still fun to play
@Zulu: It looks like they’ve confirmed no rune switching. So yay.