Comments on: The School of Hard Knocks: Learning to PvE by PvPing http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/ So many numbers, you'll think you're getting audited Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:35:41 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Phaelia http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4625 Phaelia Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:54:37 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4625 @Yggdrasil: I apologize if I came across as thinking you came across poorly. ^_^ I just wanted to point out how hard (or at least annoying and time consuming) it can be to get rewards through PvP. :-) No worries! Phaelias last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Resto4Life/~3/329253897/" rel="nofollow">Mailbag: Leveling in WotLK</a> @Yggdrasil: I apologize if I came across as thinking you came across poorly. ^_^ I just wanted to point out how hard (or at least annoying and time consuming) it can be to get rewards through PvP. :-) No worries!

Phaelias last blog post..Mailbag: Leveling in WotLK

]]> By: Yggdrasil http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4624 Yggdrasil Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:33:22 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4624 I'm not arguing that BG items should be inaccessible in any way, that is why I propose changing the ways in which PvE rewards are gotten, NOT PvP. The issues of BG PvP reach far beyond the loot system, in my opinion, but I was merely expressing why I think many PvE players are incensed at the "welfare epics". I totally agree that anything going on now with loot, attunements, etc. is fine...it all won't matter in a few months, but I like the token and badge system for loot, and I'm hoping that it will expand, so the loot grind could be a tad less painful for those who are more PvE oriented. I apologize if it came across poorly. I’m not arguing that BG items should be inaccessible in any way, that is why I propose changing the ways in which PvE rewards are gotten, NOT PvP. The issues of BG PvP reach far beyond the loot system, in my opinion, but I was merely expressing why I think many PvE players are incensed at the “welfare epics”. I totally agree that anything going on now with loot, attunements, etc. is fine…it all won’t matter in a few months, but I like the token and badge system for loot, and I’m hoping that it will expand, so the loot grind could be a tad less painful for those who are more PvE oriented. I apologize if it came across poorly.

]]> By: Phaelia http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4615 Phaelia Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:05:40 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4615 @Yggdrasil: I'm not sure that I agree that Honor rewards don't require success. I play Alliance and any time I want to buy a new BG item, I pretty much have to lose the same number of games that I need Marks. This is despite how well I play in Battlegrounds and regardless of the friends I bring along. In a Battleground, you rely on 9-39 complete strangers not to totally suck. As these players come from different guilds and even different <em>servers</em>, there's little incentive to work together. Should a BG participant then have NO way of acquiring these items? As it is, every one of them (except those requiring AV tokens) is a huge headache. I agree that Honor rewards shouldn't trump PvE rewards in their equivalent and respective levels of play. I.e., I think it's acceptable for S3 armor to be better than T4 armor. S3 is supposed to be two tiers beyond the stats of T4, after all. And really, is there any harm in allowing the members of guilds who haven't yet been able to get into T5/T6 content to get a "leg up" on the gear level required to progress by doing some "extra-curricular" activity in battlegrounds? The expansion will be out in just a few months, at which point this will all be moot. Let people have the gear they want, in my opinion. They have said that the gear rewards in Heroic instances will be much better and more in-line with the level of difficulty for each. I honestly hope that means that some items from Heroics will be better than items that can be acquired through at least 10-man raiding. I want a reason to run 5-mans on my own time ... more than just badges. I think having different "tiers" of badges isn't a bad idea, though I don't think each level of instance should necessarily have its own. To use WotLK as an example, I would think Kara + Heroics should go together, SSC + TK should go together (maybe MH, too), BT + Sunwell. Of course, if they were to implement a badge system the way they did last time (only a few months before the next expansion), I again don't see the problem in giving people access to great gear without requiring them to see places like BT/Sunwell. @Yggdrasil: I’m not sure that I agree that Honor rewards don’t require success. I play Alliance and any time I want to buy a new BG item, I pretty much have to lose the same number of games that I need Marks. This is despite how well I play in Battlegrounds and regardless of the friends I bring along. In a Battleground, you rely on 9-39 complete strangers not to totally suck. As these players come from different guilds and even different servers, there’s little incentive to work together. Should a BG participant then have NO way of acquiring these items? As it is, every one of them (except those requiring AV tokens) is a huge headache.

I agree that Honor rewards shouldn’t trump PvE rewards in their equivalent and respective levels of play. I.e., I think it’s acceptable for S3 armor to be better than T4 armor. S3 is supposed to be two tiers beyond the stats of T4, after all. And really, is there any harm in allowing the members of guilds who haven’t yet been able to get into T5/T6 content to get a “leg up” on the gear level required to progress by doing some “extra-curricular” activity in battlegrounds? The expansion will be out in just a few months, at which point this will all be moot. Let people have the gear they want, in my opinion.

They have said that the gear rewards in Heroic instances will be much better and more in-line with the level of difficulty for each. I honestly hope that means that some items from Heroics will be better than items that can be acquired through at least 10-man raiding. I want a reason to run 5-mans on my own time … more than just badges.

I think having different “tiers” of badges isn’t a bad idea, though I don’t think each level of instance should necessarily have its own. To use WotLK as an example, I would think Kara + Heroics should go together, SSC + TK should go together (maybe MH, too), BT + Sunwell. Of course, if they were to implement a badge system the way they did last time (only a few months before the next expansion), I again don’t see the problem in giving people access to great gear without requiring them to see places like BT/Sunwell.

]]> By: Yggdrasil http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4592 Yggdrasil Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:32:37 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4592 I hate PvP, in all honesty. Just to be clear, this is in no small part because I suck at it. Horribly. I might like it more if I had friends who I could PvP with, since I am pretty naturally drawn to the team thing, but I don't. I dislike it, nothing will change that now. Could it make me a better player overall? Maybe. I don't know, and my skills are more than adequate for what I do now. I think the major complaint most PvE players have is not that the PvP gear is good, that's fine. The problems are, I think: 1) Honor rewards do not require succss. 2) Some Honor rewards are inarguably superior for BOTH PvE and PvP to anything in PvE. That being said, I think the majority of PvP players are generally like the majority of PvE players. They are trying to have fun playing a game, and they have a general desire to win and succeed at it. They aren't all afk, they aren't all screaming "Let 'em 5 cap!" They should not be punished for enjoying an aspect of the game that I don't, and should not be punished for the minority of players that abuse a loot system. The majority of PvP players deserve gear that is worthy of their time and energy, because they have hopefully honed themselves to some level of expertise at what they do. I have a couple of ideas for improving the situation: Option #1) Better gear drops- It makes no sense for a boss in a heroic 5-man to be dropping gear that you (and everyone in your group) have to have already surpassed in order to kill the boss. The gear that drops should be in that little grey area between raiding level and regular 5-man blues, at the least, kind of where the epic faction rep. rewards seem to fall. Option #2) Expand the badge/token loot system- Make all bosses drop badges or tokens which can be exchanged for items at a vendor. Make different badges for different item levels, so that people are not getting epic loot for running regular 5 mans, etc. Of course, these solutions could only happen during the expansion, but I think people would be much happier with this. Sorry to drag the loot thing over here, it just perks my interest more than which group is more "skilled". The point is moot. The only people who can seriously argue that the 2 areas of play don't require completely different approaches are ranged/caster DPS, and even then, not really. Of course, that is just my opinion. I hate PvP, in all honesty. Just to be clear, this is in no small part because I suck at it. Horribly. I might like it more if I had friends who I could PvP with, since I am pretty naturally drawn to the team thing, but I don’t. I dislike it, nothing will change that now. Could it make me a better player overall? Maybe. I don’t know, and my skills are more than adequate for what I do now. I think the major complaint most PvE players have is not that the PvP gear is good, that’s fine. The problems are, I think:

1) Honor rewards do not require succss.

2) Some Honor rewards are inarguably superior for BOTH PvE and PvP to anything in PvE.

That being said, I think the majority of PvP players are generally like the majority of PvE players. They are trying to have fun playing a game, and they have a general desire to win and succeed at it. They aren’t all afk, they aren’t all screaming “Let ‘em 5 cap!” They should not be punished for enjoying an aspect of the game that I don’t, and should not be punished for the minority of players that abuse a loot system. The majority of PvP players deserve gear that is worthy of their time and energy, because they have hopefully honed themselves to some level of expertise at what they do.

I have a couple of ideas for improving the situation:

Option #1) Better gear drops- It makes no sense for a boss in a heroic 5-man to be dropping gear that you (and everyone in your group) have to have already surpassed in order to kill the boss. The gear that drops should be in that little grey area between raiding level and regular 5-man blues, at the least, kind of where the epic faction rep. rewards seem to fall.

Option #2) Expand the badge/token loot system- Make all bosses drop badges or tokens which can be exchanged for items at a vendor. Make different badges for different item levels, so that people are not getting epic loot for running regular 5 mans, etc.

Of course, these solutions could only happen during the expansion, but I think people would be much happier with this.

Sorry to drag the loot thing over here, it just perks my interest more than which group is more “skilled”. The point is moot. The only people who can seriously argue that the 2 areas of play don’t require completely different approaches are ranged/caster DPS, and even then, not really. Of course, that is just my opinion.

]]> By: Phaelia http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4577 Phaelia Sat, 05 Jul 2008 18:03:52 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4577 @Dyera: I had a similar experience. I remember standing in the middle of Nagrand Arena trying to successfully "roll" 3 x LB, a Rejuv, and Regrowth on Mr. Phae. Yeah, I didn't last long... P.S. I didn't know Rogues could disarm Hunter traps - that's neat! @Horns: Thanks for sharing that post. It had some great examples of the potential benefits of PvPing on a regular basis. Right now it's AV-weekend so I might have to poke my head in there a couple of times. For PvPers, at least, it's never been about the items. PvE is about improving your character through gaining gear, but PvPers only care about not losing any sort of advantage to their opponents. They "advance" by getting better at killing the other teams they face. Because PvE gear progression would have eventually trumped the original Gladiator set, they *had* to put in new sets of gear. And I agree about the Priestess Delrissa fight; good times! @Zackoria: LOL - no, I don't think Mr. Phae was ever hit by an errant hairbrush. He did have to spend a lot of time calming me down, though. I can't *believe* he actually wants me to consider Arenaing with him again this season. >.< @Josh: You bring to mind a haiku I wrote back when playing in S2: Judgement of Justice Slowing Cheetahs to a crawl. Not so just to me. @Abagoo: You can easily make the money for bi-weekly respecs by doing the SSO dailies one day each week! No excuses, lady! @Rivven: If you haven't seen it yet, you might look into <a href="http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=8418&so=oldest&page=4" rel="nofollow">Ghost Pulse</a> which shows a much larger version of the spell that's just come off cooldown somewhere on your screen. It's fantastic for tracking the Swiftmend timer. @TreeRex: Your spec sounds similar to mine. No points in anything related to Healing Touch and just enough Balance points to nab Insect Swarm (and Brambles). @NotAnIssue: I think it's a problem when someone <em>has</em> to participate in PvP to acquire a PvE upgrade. However, I can't believe that there's honestly nothing to be learned for Ferals by participating in PvP on occassion. If nothing else, I imagine it's good practice for countering spell casts through Feral Charge or shifting out of Frost Novas and Polys. These sorts of things don't occur regularly in PvE, but they DO happen sometimes, and quick reflexes when you do encounter them are no doubt helpful. If you never leave Cat Form in BGs, it's understandable that you aren't learning anything new, but you're also not taking full advantage of the retinue of abilities available to you. This I can certainly understand if you feel forced to participate in the first place, but that doesn't change the fact that the potential for learning is there. @Dave: Ty =) @Kuhbi: I had a ton of fun with Feral Charge in instances. There's nothing like the "WTF" effect of having your healer turn into a large furry mammal and slam her face into the mob you're tanking. ^_^ Rocket Bear is probably the thing I miss the most about not being PvP-specced. @Horns: Good examples of PvP-learned PvE-applicable skills for Ferals. Situational awareness isn't something I mentioned in my post above, but it's a really important benefit of PvP. Also, I think you learn to watch groupmates health bars and pay attention to threats to them that you might otherwise miss if you've never PvPed. @Dyera: I had a similar experience. I remember standing in the middle of Nagrand Arena trying to successfully “roll” 3 x LB, a Rejuv, and Regrowth on Mr. Phae. Yeah, I didn’t last long… P.S. I didn’t know Rogues could disarm Hunter traps – that’s neat!

@Horns: Thanks for sharing that post. It had some great examples of the potential benefits of PvPing on a regular basis. Right now it’s AV-weekend so I might have to poke my head in there a couple of times.

For PvPers, at least, it’s never been about the items. PvE is about improving your character through gaining gear, but PvPers only care about not losing any sort of advantage to their opponents. They “advance” by getting better at killing the other teams they face. Because PvE gear progression would have eventually trumped the original Gladiator set, they *had* to put in new sets of gear. And I agree about the Priestess Delrissa fight; good times!

@Zackoria: LOL – no, I don’t think Mr. Phae was ever hit by an errant hairbrush. He did have to spend a lot of time calming me down, though. I can’t *believe* he actually wants me to consider Arenaing with him again this season. >.< @Josh: You bring to mind a haiku I wrote back when playing in S2:

Judgement of Justice
Slowing Cheetahs to a crawl.
Not so just to me.

@Abagoo: You can easily make the money for bi-weekly respecs by doing the SSO dailies one day each week! No excuses, lady!

@Rivven: If you haven't seen it yet, you might look into Ghost Pulse which shows a much larger version of the spell that’s just come off cooldown somewhere on your screen. It’s fantastic for tracking the Swiftmend timer.

@TreeRex: Your spec sounds similar to mine. No points in anything related to Healing Touch and just enough Balance points to nab Insect Swarm (and Brambles).

@NotAnIssue: I think it’s a problem when someone has to participate in PvP to acquire a PvE upgrade. However, I can’t believe that there’s honestly nothing to be learned for Ferals by participating in PvP on occassion. If nothing else, I imagine it’s good practice for countering spell casts through Feral Charge or shifting out of Frost Novas and Polys. These sorts of things don’t occur regularly in PvE, but they DO happen sometimes, and quick reflexes when you do encounter them are no doubt helpful.

If you never leave Cat Form in BGs, it’s understandable that you aren’t learning anything new, but you’re also not taking full advantage of the retinue of abilities available to you. This I can certainly understand if you feel forced to participate in the first place, but that doesn’t change the fact that the potential for learning is there.

@Dave: Ty =)

@Kuhbi: I had a ton of fun with Feral Charge in instances. There’s nothing like the “WTF” effect of having your healer turn into a large furry mammal and slam her face into the mob you’re tanking. ^_^ Rocket Bear is probably the thing I miss the most about not being PvP-specced.

@Horns: Good examples of PvP-learned PvE-applicable skills for Ferals.

Situational awareness isn’t something I mentioned in my post above, but it’s a really important benefit of PvP. Also, I think you learn to watch groupmates health bars and pay attention to threats to them that you might otherwise miss if you’ve never PvPed.

]]> By: Horns http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4571 Horns Sat, 05 Jul 2008 03:11:57 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4571 This was way more popular pre-TBC then today, but there are still guilds which sell raid spots in 25 mans. I've personally 'boosted' a lot of friends alts through instances (both heroic and non heroic) I didn't need just so they can get reputation or gear, or both. I've been in Karazhan a bunch of times with guildies who dinged 70 the day before, and we can gear em up in 2-3 runs more than decently. With the introduction of personal ratings, you have to have some pretty loyal and good geared friends to boost you in arenas if you're geared in PvE blues, even epics. Roll a warlock, get a full S3/S4 druid to healbot you and I bet you won't even hit 1600 rating. Again, we stopped talking about the Phae's point in the post, we're just continuing BigBearButts loot drama. It boils down to this: people are complaining about having to PvP because blizzard fucked up with itemization. I tank in S2 shoulders, PvP bracers, and soon belt and boots. When we lack proper PvE items, what's wrong with getting some PvP items to fill those slots? Blasphemy. For feral PvP I use SSO necklace and <a href="http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33465" rel="nofollow">Staff of Primal Fury</a> (ZA drop), because it's freaking hard to get PvP items for 3 different specs even with 1k arena points weekly. You're saying you don't need any skills to get BG items - unfortunately I agree. You need exactly zero skill. You can even afk - does that mean items should suck? That is why - to a degree - I agree with the rating requirements. In raids, one player can be dragged by 24 other, regardless if you agree or not it's a fact. You can suck. You can <i>stand in the fire</i> and die and if you're not a class of utmost importance, the boss is likely to go down. Sure, you'll probably get kicked from the guild if you keep doing stunts like that, but you get the point. Same goes the other way - maybe your heal just saved that tank and thanks to you the boss is down. Maybe you can afk in battlegrounds. Maybe you'd killed the shaman who ran away with 100 health in Warsong and scored the flag. Maybe you would just die but still buy a few precious second for reinforcements to arrive so your bunkers won't be destroyed. It can make all the difference. -- Slightly on topic now. Curator - TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > Evocation - DPS boss > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > Evocation - DPS boss > > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt. Takes skill. Shade of Aran - zomg don't stand in the blizzard, omg banish the elementals, omg don't move on flame wrath, omg move away from arcane explosion, omg dispel slow, omg do this do that. Takes a while longer to learn that encounter, and often someone will screw up, sometimes slightly, sometimes not so. Again, MgT Priestess Delrissa fight - you see encounters like that everyday in PvP. "<i>if they are new to the game, just leveled an alt, etc. They have an easy fairly quick way to gear-up for current “end-game” content (Arena).</i>" If you just leveled up and want to raid Sunwell the next day, of course you don't have an easy way to gear up. You're doing quests and normal instances for some good blues so you can do heroics, so you can do Karazhan, so you can move on to 25 mans - Gruul, Mag, etc. There used to be a progression. Maybe you've seen all the encounters in SW 50 times and you got the skills, but there's no guild in the world mad enough to take you there without proper items. Till Arena season 3 showed up and introduced S1 items for honor, you could only buy Grind Marshall/High Farmlord items which really really sucked. Today, you can get S2 items for honor, and even almost free rep blues - if you plan on competing with that at 1500+ rating, even if you got skills for 2500, you're gonna have a hard time. This was way more popular pre-TBC then today, but there are still guilds which sell raid spots in 25 mans. I’ve personally ‘boosted’ a lot of friends alts through instances (both heroic and non heroic) I didn’t need just so they can get reputation or gear, or both. I’ve been in Karazhan a bunch of times with guildies who dinged 70 the day before, and we can gear em up in 2-3 runs more than decently.

With the introduction of personal ratings, you have to have some pretty loyal and good geared friends to boost you in arenas if you’re geared in PvE blues, even epics. Roll a warlock, get a full S3/S4 druid to healbot you and I bet you won’t even hit 1600 rating.

Again, we stopped talking about the Phae’s point in the post, we’re just continuing BigBearButts loot drama.
It boils down to this: people are complaining about having to PvP because blizzard fucked up with itemization. I tank in S2 shoulders, PvP bracers, and soon belt and boots.

When we lack proper PvE items, what’s wrong with getting some PvP items to fill those slots? Blasphemy. For feral PvP I use SSO necklace and Staff of Primal Fury (ZA drop), because it’s freaking hard to get PvP items for 3 different specs even with 1k arena points weekly.

You’re saying you don’t need any skills to get BG items – unfortunately I agree. You need exactly zero skill. You can even afk – does that mean items should suck? That is why – to a degree – I agree with the rating requirements.

In raids, one player can be dragged by 24 other, regardless if you agree or not it’s a fact. You can suck. You can stand in the fire and die and if you’re not a class of utmost importance, the boss is likely to go down. Sure, you’ll probably get kicked from the guild if you keep doing stunts like that, but you get the point. Same goes the other way – maybe your heal just saved that tank and thanks to you the boss is down.

Maybe you can afk in battlegrounds. Maybe you’d killed the shaman who ran away with 100 health in Warsong and scored the flag. Maybe you would just die but still buy a few precious second for reinforcements to arrive so your bunkers won’t be destroyed. It can make all the difference.

–

Slightly on topic now.

Curator – TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > Evocation – DPS boss > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > Evocation – DPS boss > > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt > TAB > Shadowbolt, Shadowbolt.
Takes skill.

Shade of Aran – zomg don’t stand in the blizzard, omg banish the elementals, omg don’t move on flame wrath, omg move away from arcane explosion, omg dispel slow, omg do this do that. Takes a while longer to learn that encounter, and often someone will screw up, sometimes slightly, sometimes not so. Again, MgT Priestess Delrissa fight – you see encounters like that everyday in PvP.

“if they are new to the game, just leveled an alt, etc. They have an easy fairly quick way to gear-up for current “end-game” content (Arena).”

If you just leveled up and want to raid Sunwell the next day, of course you don’t have an easy way to gear up. You’re doing quests and normal instances for some good blues so you can do heroics, so you can do Karazhan, so you can move on to 25 mans – Gruul, Mag, etc. There used to be a progression. Maybe you’ve seen all the encounters in SW 50 times and you got the skills, but there’s no guild in the world mad enough to take you there without proper items.

Till Arena season 3 showed up and introduced S1 items for honor, you could only buy Grind Marshall/High Farmlord items which really really sucked. Today, you can get S2 items for honor, and even almost free rep blues – if you plan on competing with that at 1500+ rating, even if you got skills for 2500, you’re gonna have a hard time.

]]> By: NotAnIssue http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4570 NotAnIssue Fri, 04 Jul 2008 23:52:06 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4570 @horns: That's my point. I don't need any skills, just spend some time and in a short period, I am geared up for end-game PvP (Arena). It took me 3-4 short nights and I had my S1 shoulders (I got them a few months ago). I didn't need anyone's help. I didn't have to bother "high-end" guildmates to walk me through old dead content. It cost me nothing but a bit of time and it didn't require any skill. Where is the PvE analog for that? I have not problems with PvP'rs. They love their game, that's great. Fortunately, if they are new to the game, just leveled an alt, etc. They have an easy fairly quick way to gear-up for current "end-game" content (Arena). And, if they choose, they can actually learn some skills along the way. But PvE'rs do not this option. And just to rub it in to their (PvE'r) faces more, the PvP gear can be used in PvE (for some specs and item slots). WTF? This (injustice? seems a bit strong since it is only a game) didn't exists when BC was released. And didn't several months afterward. It really started to show itself when S3 started and S1 gear was for honor. But now with S4, and S2 being nearly free the "gear gap" is significant. Hopefully Blizzard devices some schema in the waning months of WotLK that resolves this issue for PvE'rs. As the current system is just goofy. @horns: That’s my point. I don’t need any skills, just spend some time and in a short period, I am geared up for end-game PvP (Arena). It took me 3-4 short nights and I had my S1 shoulders (I got them a few months ago). I didn’t need anyone’s help. I didn’t have to bother “high-end” guildmates to walk me through old dead content. It cost me nothing but a bit of time and it didn’t require any skill. Where is the PvE analog for that?

I have not problems with PvP’rs. They love their game, that’s great. Fortunately, if they are new to the game, just leveled an alt, etc. They have an easy fairly quick way to gear-up for current “end-game” content (Arena). And, if they choose, they can actually learn some skills along the way. But PvE’rs do not this option. And just to rub it in to their (PvE’r) faces more, the PvP gear can be used in PvE (for some specs and item slots). WTF?

This (injustice? seems a bit strong since it is only a game) didn’t exists when BC was released. And didn’t several months afterward. It really started to show itself when S3 started and S1 gear was for honor. But now with S4, and S2 being nearly free the “gear gap” is significant. Hopefully Blizzard devices some schema in the waning months of WotLK that resolves this issue for PvE’rs. As the current system is just goofy.

]]> By: Kuhbi http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4568 Kuhbi Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:01:38 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4568 I honestly haven't learned much in arena or PvP play other than "I should avoid this as it throws me into fits of rage!". Really, I found PvP to be more frustrating than anything, even though it can be fun when you are playing as a team and win. Having terrible PvP gear (the highest I got was about 10k hp and 330 resi) and beeing farmed by people with PvP gear one tier above your is just *arghgfhdg* The standard PvP Resto spec with feral charge in it was great for 5-person instances though. It allows one to utilize so much more of our class than just our healing spells. Helping out with DPS (insect swarm <3 and faerie fire), crowd control when things go wrong (feral charge, bash, cyclone) and healing while doing all that just rocks. I might be a bit biased in that regard as I used to play a bear/heal hybrid spec on my old druid pre-BC and frequently changed roles. Also I think any druid should experiment with all roles our class offers. When I leveled Kuhbi to 70 and a while after that I would change specs several times a week depending on my mood. This really helped me appreciate all aspects of the Druid :). The demands of high end raiding however would not allow for such talent specs to be viable though, which is kind of sad for every class that can fill more than one role. To be honest I have had the most fun with my druids (yes, both of them ;) ) in those moments when things went horribly wrong and by employing my classes wide range of skills I could manage to turn the situation around when any other healing class would just have given up. //ubi I honestly haven’t learned much in arena or PvP play other than “I should avoid this as it throws me into fits of rage!”. Really, I found PvP to be more frustrating than anything, even though it can be fun when you are playing as a team and win. Having terrible PvP gear (the highest I got was about 10k hp and 330 resi) and beeing farmed by people with PvP gear one tier above your is just *arghgfhdg*

The standard PvP Resto spec with feral charge in it was great for 5-person instances though. It allows one to utilize so much more of our class than just our healing spells. Helping out with DPS (insect swarm <3 and faerie fire), crowd control when things go wrong (feral charge, bash, cyclone) and healing while doing all that just rocks. I might be a bit biased in that regard as I used to play a bear/heal hybrid spec on my old druid pre-BC and frequently changed roles. Also I think any druid should experiment with all roles our class offers. When I leveled Kuhbi to 70 and a while after that I would change specs several times a week depending on my mood. This really helped me appreciate all aspects of the Druid :) . The demands of high end raiding however would not allow for such talent specs to be viable though, which is kind of sad for every class that can fill more than one role.

To be honest I have had the most fun with my druids (yes, both of them ;) ) in those moments when things went horribly wrong and by employing my classes wide range of skills I could manage to turn the situation around when any other healing class would just have given up.

//ubi

]]> By: Horns http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4566 Horns Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:23:53 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4566 <i>In BG PvP, I never leave cat form. Mangle, Maim and an occasional Bite.</i> Good luck killing anyone like that, besides clothies with 0 resilience. Try going to Durotar or wherever alliance duels and try fighting some more challenging opponents - but that's another story. In BG PvP, I never leave cat form. Mangle, Maim and an occasional Bite.

Good luck killing anyone like that, besides clothies with 0 resilience. Try going to Durotar or wherever alliance duels and try fighting some more challenging opponents – but that’s another story.

]]> By: NotAnIssue http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/comment-page-1/#comment-4565 NotAnIssue Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:45:46 +0000 http://www.resto4life.com/2008/07/02/the-school-of-hard-knocks-learning-to-pve-by-pvping/#comment-4565 @Horns: The examples of skills I might need in PvE would work great assuming there was one trash mob left, my healer just died, I (as a tank) was low on health, and my pot timer was still on cooldown. They do nothing on boss encounters. And what exactly does a Feral Kitty "learn" from PvP that helps in PvE? Sure I can shift out and help heal if needed, but that is nothing that I would "learn" from PvP. You do it the whole time you are leveling. In BG PvP, I never leave cat form. Mangle, Maim and an occasional Bite. That's all I need to do and I'm able to gear-up for "end-game" PvP (Arenas) in a short period of time. What is the equivalent for PvE? There isn't one. That's really all (I think) PvE'rs are asking for. A solo means to gear-up for current end-game content so I can get catch-up with my buddies that have been playing for months, or so I can get my new alt caught up so he can start making a difference. We understand there are skills you need to be effective not just gear, but the same is true for BGs. They teach nothing (because nothing is required) that will aid you in Arenas. @Horns: The examples of skills I might need in PvE would work great assuming there was one trash mob left, my healer just died, I (as a tank) was low on health, and my pot timer was still on cooldown. They do nothing on boss encounters. And what exactly does a Feral Kitty “learn” from PvP that helps in PvE? Sure I can shift out and help heal if needed, but that is nothing that I would “learn” from PvP. You do it the whole time you are leveling.

In BG PvP, I never leave cat form. Mangle, Maim and an occasional Bite. That’s all I need to do and I’m able to gear-up for “end-game” PvP (Arenas) in a short period of time. What is the equivalent for PvE? There isn’t one. That’s really all (I think) PvE’rs are asking for. A solo means to gear-up for current end-game content so I can get catch-up with my buddies that have been playing for months, or so I can get my new alt caught up so he can start making a difference. We understand there are skills you need to be effective not just gear, but the same is true for BGs. They teach nothing (because nothing is required) that will aid you in Arenas.

]]>