With the release of Wrath of the Lich King looming on the “soon” horizon, many players find themselves looking for ways to keep themselves busy. Here are 12 steps to ensure you’re as prepared as possible for stepping foot on the shores of Northrend. (Hint: buy warm boots)
Bornakk: Druids Not to be "Big Green Blobs"
Published on April 28, 2008 by Phaelia 
Blue, Spells and Talents 
59 Comments
Jiryn of Gorefiend (US) posted to the Wrath of the Lich King forums, requesting once again that Druids be considered for the addition of an out of combat resurrection spell:
In Wrath of the Lich King please give Druids something they’ve needed for quite a while. A Non-cooldown res, much like a Priest, Shaman or Paladin resurrection. This would be a second rez of theirs to use at the end of fights or after wipes when they have been Soulstoned. We’ve waited long enough; give us the FULL healing potential we were supposed to [have]!
The post was blue-tagged with this (disheartening) response from Bornakk:
Then after this it would probably be Mortal Strike that’s needed, right? We understand there are many spells and abilities that other classes have that would make things easier for players, but we also need to be careful in morphing all classes into one big green blob that all have the same skills. Right now having an awesome ability like Battle Resurrection sets Druids apart from the regular ressing classes.
And before anybody asks, we are working on the new talents and spells for each class but we don’t have any details to provide on them at this time.
Because clearly, Mortal Strike is an ability commonly associated with the healing role. That’s just silly. Shamans have wipe recovery in the form of Reincarnate, Paladins have wipe recovery in the form of Divine Intervention (well, assuming they’re grouped with someone that can also rez). Both of these abilities are in addition to having access to a standard resurrection spell. Bornakk goes on to follow up on his original comment with the following:
I was just pointing out that instead of the normal out-of-combat res that other classes have, Druids have a much more unique and special ability. I understand that having more out-of-combat res abilities on more classes would make wipe recovery easier, but we want to be careful in not having abilities given out to every class and make them less unique.
If you are in a 5-person dungeon and the Druid is the only healer, while you don’t have wipe recovery (cables and Soulstones aside), you can organize your group and approach each of the pulls with this in mind and be more cautious to avoid the wipes. It make take a wipe or two to straighten things out, but adapting to the situation can make things run a lot smoother.
So essentially, Druids (and the people who decide to group with them) just have to be better at the game than other healers and their groupmates. I’m glad someone is telling me this now! Rather than go off on a another gigormous rant on this subject, I’d like to share one of my favorite responses:
Where are people getting off on the idea that an OOC rez is unique and giving one to druids would remove the ability’s/class’s uniqueness? Re: the ability–three classes have it. Unique = three identical abilities across three classes but no more? Re: the class–we are unique in that we are the only class that can main heal yet cannot rez the party after a messy pull/boss fight. That is, we are uniquely disadvantaged.
…
I would like to remind Blizzard that not everyone gets to run in guild groups where mistakes never happen and everyone is a machine. Things crop up in real groups. Kids get chased off their computers by mom. Connections are subject to hiccups, lag spikes, and bottoming out entirely. Sometimes you just have to put out that grease fire on the stove. We get punished for not only being in groups with horribad players, but for little unpredictable occurrences that any other healer can make up for once the damage is done. At one point, a long time ago that is now a hazy druid memory, I could understand this; few instances had stealth-spotting mobs, and druids were rarely main healers. This is not the case anymore. Please, let the game change with the times. We are not asking for an ability that makes any other healer unique; we are asking for an ability that every other healer has.
— Alice of Kirin Tor
Related Posts
59 Comments
Trackbacks
Comments RSS Feed TrackBack URL
Pallys are great trash tankers but might face problems with spellers due to OOM or just a lack of spell defend abilities. If your group is about to kill raid boss with some spell abilities, high constant melee damage and bleed/spell resistances better get decent warrior.
I’m going to refrain from making a useful, relevant comment, because although I strongly support a rezzing method of some sort (I’ve seen tons suggested, some good, some not so good), that lifeblooming blob takes away any and all negativty of my day.
:3
I would be happy with an out-of-combat mode for battle rez .. how about Rebirth with the same reagent cost, without the cooldown? As long as you’re out of combat. It wouldn’t be cheap to rez, but at least you’d have the option. Maybe link it with the Swiftmend talent, making it available at 32 talent points, so it’d be a talent based ability for resto druids only?
But hey, we’re already overpowered, and too versatile
Couldn’t your argument about Pallies and Shaman having wipe recovery and OOC res be turned to say that priests should also have wipe recovery? In addition, I’m pretty sure Bornak’s comment about MS was targeted at Ferals, not Trees, he’s just applying the most common idea that’s been shifting around the classes to demonstrate that classes should be unique.
No, I don’t think druids should get an OOC res. Why? Same reason Bornak gave, it’s unique. It’s not a disadvantage to have to plan a party a little better than the other healers. Really, with the opening of offspecs to primary rolls, is it that hard to find a paladin tank or a shadow priest, ele/enh shaman, or ret paladin to dps? Your disadvantage is immediately turned around to be many different specs’ advantages.
Ok, it sounds kind of mean, but really, it’s just the game. He’s right about the Big Blob thing. In fact, there are a few things in the game that need to be *removed* for the same reason that this one shouldn’t be added.
@Nilianil: ^_^ TY!
@Sindarina: An interesting idea! I’m not sure why the high cost would be necessary, but it would solve a lot of Druids’ complaints about getting the ability: we wouldn’t have to res after raid wipes. (For the record, those Druids are dumb! >.<)
@Trollin’: Priests do have a form of wipe prevention in Spirit of Redemption (yes, I know; but that’s still its intention). Uniquely disadvantaged is not the flavor of “unique” I’d like to be. And with the exception of the Paladin tank, none of the “off spec” classes you list have crowd control, further limiting our group composition. I’m not sure how you don’t think that having to look for *additional* special classes for your group is not a disadvantage. It can be difficult enough to find a tank these days without also having to find something that can rez.
Rezzing is not a class-defining ability. It’s a role-defining ability and part of what we (are supposed to) do.
Phae:
First i absoultely love your little graphic there, you always make me smile.
secondly, my friend and i were sitting around disscussing possible talent additions in the coming expansion. It wouldnt surprise me if the developers put in a talented “rebirth”. 4 points for 5 mins each, down to no cooldown. or atleast a severely dimished cooldown. Obviously this would be REALLY HIGH down the tree, but hey, it’d be a great idea eh?
~Rethic
His MS point is rubbish, look at what they did to hunters. For me that threw any “class uniqueness” etc etc out the window. That argument may have been valid pre-arena, but with all the FIDDLING they’ve done to balance classes for pvp, class flavour is a thing of the past. IMO
Silly me expecting a more professional reply from a blue…lol holy sarcasm batman! Maybe they intended druids to be engineers! And uniqueness is no excuse, ALL cc classes have…CC, all dps classes have…dps…all healing classes (except druids) have OOC rez. It’s not like they were asking for a self rez, geez.
@Rethic:- I just wanted to point out that this talent you’re considering, is actually really overpowered. It’s like being able to graveyard zerg any encounter in the game, but better because you don’t even have to run back!
“Rezzing is not a class-defining ability. It’s a role-defining ability and part of what we (are supposed to) do.”
Well in this case it IS a class defining ability, or at least the lack of it defines the class. I have never been denied healing a group because I was a Druid, and I think we can file this under “never going to happen”. Druids are different and we should love and embrace that. I have saved way more groups with a Rebirth that I would can think of, and outright prevented the need for a mass res after the pull is clear. Even if we had a OOC rez, whats going to keep us alive after the group wipes? Nothing. Unless we get a Soulstone or a DI, its over anyway and everyone has to run back. Its not often I run into situation where 2 to 4 people die on a pull and I am left standing at the end of it. Normally I have been the 2nd or 3rd person to die from healing aggro trying desperately to keep everyone alive.
And yeah the green blob spamming Lifebloom is awesome.
Ahahaha… the lifebloom blob is hilarious!
We druids were never created equal, it seems it was intended that way. Unfortunately we’ve always had to be better at our particular role than the parent class to be successful at it, however we have come a long, long way. Don’t even want to think about what our talent trees looked like back when WoW launched.
“Rezzing is not a class-defining ability. It’s a role-defining ability and part of what we (are supposed to) do.”
QFT
Blizzard is making it a class-defining ability by giving it to every healing class *except* Druids. It doesn’t mean it *should* be a class-defining ability. Druids are different, but that doesn’t mean we should embrace and revel in this difference.
This isn’t for the mass resurrection after a total wipe. This is for the one person you just couldn’t get to in time; this is for the Mage who got one-shotted by a spell reflect. This is vital for 5-man content. The smaller the group size the more each character gets to use their arsenal of abilities. OOC rez needs to be part of a Restoration Druid’s abilities.
OOC rez is undeniably a neccessary and essential healer ability. It doesn’t make the game any easier, but only more inconvienent for your group if you lack it. It puts more pressure on the healer and more pressure on the group to perform optimally. In WoW, mistakes are punished by death. There’s almost an underlying insinuation here that other healers NEED OOC rez because they are can’t perform as well as Druids. I’m not saying that myself as every healing class has its own unique style, but why is it necessary for Druids to demand from themselves and their groups a higher standard of play?
So, why should groups with Druid healers get the challenge of ensuring they are more careful than the groups with Priest, Shaman or Paladin? It’s great that Blizzard allowed those classes to be more effective in their other DPS roles, but it shouldn’t encourage groups to include one of them so they can avoid having someone run back after one person dies. And while I don’t see people excluding Druids from groups because they lack OOC Rez, they will certainly rejoice if the group gets another healer class with a DPS build simply because of the OOC rez potential.
Druids are the jack-of-all-trades. We don’t need to be able to do everything, but we need to be able to fulfill the needs of the role we are performing. Resurrection is one of the duties of a healer. They didn’t give it any of the non-healers. It wouldn’t make sense. Why *doesn’t* it make sense to give it to Druids?
Rebirth IS awesome. I wouldn’t trade it for an OOC rez, but Rebirth is a class-ability, like Spirit of Redemption, Divine Intervention, and Reincarnation. Rebirth is our resurrection ability, but it’s closer to a Soulstone than any other healing class’s out of combat resurrection spell.
If another healing class lacked OOC rez then this “uniqueness” line of reasoning might have more validity. Instead it seems like just the latest excuse being pawned off by Blizzard for their stubborn position on this matter.
Oh … and Lifebloom blob FTW. Pure genius. ^_^
Hmm, that mortal strike analagy fell a bit flat. But would your reaction have been the same if he’d come up with a more appropriate ability? Say, let you cast healing touch in tree form? Should paladins get a hot? Should priests be allowed to carry shields? While it annoys me that my shaman has no crowd control and my priest can’t aoe, I have to grudgingly agree that the classes would very quickly blend into one if they could all bring the same abilities to a group.
What about a talent like this:
resurrects the WHOLE party (OOC) in one cast but has 30-45 CD. no zergmakers, no rez whenever I want, no self rez, just mass rez with CD. this way we could only handle a few wipes on each run but we would still be an option. (When I’m with my lock I never invite a resto druid unless I have a rezzer, it’s sad because I understand them as I have a resto too)
And just to make blizzard happy, let it have a unique(3) reagent and 70% base mana cost.
Don’t think of it as “I can’t res the party,” think of it as “Someone else has to corpse-run after a wipe.” We’re sufficiently excellent healers (and healers remain sufficiently rare) that most rational groups will swap out DPS until they have out-of-combat resurrection, or just accept the corpse runs.
Also, Rebirth makes healing much, much easier, at least for me. Once every twenty minutes I can mess up horrifically and let someone die, and then heal them despite this.
<– Not a druid (but some of my best friends–bloggers and non–are), so I just came by to comment on the lifebloomin’ blob. Inspired, Phae!
And I would have no problem at all if Blizz changed the current Rebirth to eliminate the “in-combat” requirement. To me, that’s a reasonable compromise. But again, IANAD.
They aren’t discussing the real problem with giving us an OOC rez: this will turn their eSport upsidedown. Under their current arena mechanics, this ability would make resto druids OP in the arena, where stealthing and rezing a teammate would be relatively easy. It would be nice if they would take rezzing completely out of arena so that a druid OOC rez could be a more viable option.
Seeing as every hybrid class has multiple viable roles in any 5man is it really that hard to get a prot pally/ret pally/ele shaman/shadow priest/enhance shaman/not let people die/waste 2 minutes running back/another healer/warlock to summon them to you if it’s a long instance? The only time this is really a REAL issue is in 5mans if your group is:
A)Terrible and keeps wiping so repops are an issue, in which case a normal res would be useless anyway.
B)Doesn’t have the ability to get any DPS/Tank specced other hybrid (You specifically look for CC or a healer, right? Why not specifically look for a DPS hybrid, all of which are awesome, or a prot pally, which is also awesome for 5 mans which is the only aspect of this game not having a normal res is an issue?)
C)Impatient and bitter around running back
I dunno, not having an ooc rez seems like a minor inconvenience at the benefit of having a really, really awesome skill in it’s place.
Back in Pre-TBC when any hybrid spec besides healing was a giant joke, this issue didn’t seem to come up as much when it was a bigger issue overall. If you brought a druid, it was the only healer/hybrid there 95% of the time. Everyone just bucked up and ran back. I wonder why since TBC there seems to be 5,000x the concern about it overall…
I’ve played a druid since release and been resto the entire time, and I have to say I’ve never understood the huge uproar about this. I’d never trade stealth or battle res for an ooc res, or request a waste of a WotLK talent slot for it; but that’s just me and maybe I’m a weirdo.
And in our case, rezzing is a class defining ability. Every druid with a battle res in a raid is like an extra life for the raid; someone can mess up and you can still move on. It’s kind of a big deal.
Before tbc (and a break of two years) I always worried about taking a rezzer with me. People asked: “Ok what do we need?” And I always recommended a paladin because they were actually the only who didn’t always fill in the role as healers but still had a ressurection. I didn’t want some stupid priest take my role as healer even though it was better for the job because of ressurection.(Yes…it was a very long time ago - poor priest shadow talents were still horrible)
It was always very frustrating and I felt like I had a short-coming as a healer.
After my my break finding a rezzer who wasn’t just a healer was much easier. Shamans were introduced to the alliance, priest could actually do something else but healing and pallies filled in various roles. It was actually possible to get ressurection character who wasn’t a healer. Now I often go in a pug with a rezzer who doesn’t want to take - no even accepts - my job as a healer. And I feel alot better now.
Yet I still cried when reading this.
Why are we the only healing class who don’t have an ic ressurection It’s just unfair.
Offer to trade your battle ress for OOC ress.
Druids battle ress makes them unique and even better to bring to raids.
I play a 70 resto druid and i love the fact i dont have something to fall back on for wipe recovery i have to be a better healer then everyone else!
P.S. I love the blog but you can be silly sometimes.
Reading Bornakk’s comment left me enraged. He’s an idiot.
Lifebloom blob is awesome. We need an Orb that transforms us into one. Let’s make a new petition!
By saying Druids are “uniquely disadvantaged” totally disregards the fact you have the unique ability to REZ THE TANK IN THE MIDDLE OF BATTLE. Druids already tank, melee dps, ranged dps, cc, heal, stealth, fly, are immune to poly, can shift out of cc, and yet you are asking for _more_ abilities from other classes? did you ever consider that perhaps druids are not meant to be the best at every facet of this game?
They should just get rid of all of the classes and have a character named “Character”. It can do anything. that way everone will be the exact same so everyone wont be able to say how thier class is so underpowered and needs X from this class and Y from that class.
That sounds like fun.
Lets not forget the Ressurection that the OD(original Druid) did in War of the Anciencts books. Malfurion Stromrage Drew on the life force of the nearby nature and channeled it to; I think it was krasus the Blue dragon mage but I forget, been awile since I’ve read the books. Anyway He ressurected a dead being. Why cant we learn that?
On a side note, Im getting a feeling that as of right now Blizzard has planned for the future talents that a Druid’s 51 point talent is ressurection. If I have to spec into a 51 point talent that is an OOC ressurection, I rather not have an OOC res at all.
I think the point everyone is missing is not a want for OOC rez in a raid it’s in Heroic 5 mans. Heroics are rough and even a minor mistake can get one or two players killed during any pull. With a druid healer the WHOLE group now has to wait for that one person to run back in to an instance taking more TIME, the most precious thing in this game. People know that if they take a druid healer the instance involved will take longer to complete and thus would rather wait to find a different healer. Heroic 5 mans are the big difference between pre and post BC, and it’s a big difference. Heroics and their NEED for CC is why Boomkins get passed up for groups because they have no CC, in the same way Resto druids get passed up for Heroic 5 mans for not having an OOC rez. They changed the game to require certain things to succeed, and then did not give those things to Druids. Thus why druids are QQing about these specific issues.
The best suggestion on how to fix rebirth that I have seen is to keep the requirement for a reagent, IF the spell is used in combat it will trigger the cool down otherwise it just consumes the reagent. This keep battle rez on a cool down if used and forces players to decide if useing the comabt rez is worth the corpse run should it still not same a wipe.
I have been resto and I have been Balance I have been turned down for pugs more than once, not because of gear (I am well geared) but because either I did not have CC or Rez, makes me want to spec feral and just be a tank.
What I find funniest is how opposing views try to paint druids wanting an OOC rez as selfish. A non-self rez. Priceless!
I use rebirth both in and out of combat. To the guy who said “you can rez your tank” that usually doesn’t help unless the enemy is tauntable. All the aggro on the MT was dumped when he died. He’ll have to work SO hard to get it back that by the time he does, most other people will be dead. This is moot for tauntable mobs, but most raid bosses aren’t these days
I usually battle rez healers….
Also we have the capability to do a lot of stuff, but we can’t be as good as a warrior/mage/priest unless we spec into it, so we give up our viability in the other areas. I am a barely passable feral player, I have NO points in it, I usually don’t die but I have a lot. I am not complaining about this, just pointing out that we are not as uber leet as people think when they haven’t played one.
Solution: Add a quest chain or make us spec into it so not every druid would have it. That way, the people who want the ability will get it!
I thnk one thing that many people are overlooking is that giving Druids an OOC rez would do NOTHING to game balance. It is only relevant after someone has died and the party is out of combat. So, if you’re arguing that we shouldn’t get it, it’s because you think Druids should HAVE to a) inconvenience themselves and their party members or b) make special concessions when forming their group, looking for more than the standard Tank + CC combination to also include a rezzer. Anyone who’s spent an hour looking for any one of the above can surely understand how adding an additional caveat to selecting their groupmates is arduous.
You want us to continue to be UNIQUE in our limitations? Not take something from one of ANY OTHER OF THE THREE healers in the game? Let’s look at the Druid class’s limitations, even when deeply specced into their roles: no root indoors or viable CC for Balance-specced Druids, no Shield Wall equivalent for Bears, no Potions in forms without hands, no Healing Touch in our healing form (I’m sorry, but I still think this is stupid and unnecessary; the spell isn’t going to unbalance Druids, esp if we don’t receive the mana reduction), no wipe recovery tool (the Rebirth box poofs after the party exits combat), 20% movement speed reduction in Tree of Life, group heal on 10-minute cooldown, the most expensive (and least useful) group buff, no weapon procs and we don’t benefit from Windfury like all other melee classes. Honestly, is this one additional limitation necessary for us to keep our flavor of limitation? Like I said, it does nothing for game balance. It simply serves as an arbitrary deterrent for taking a Druid healer on 5-man instance runs — heroic or not.
Why wasn’t this as important pre-TBC? Because people weren’t running instances every day. There were something like fifteen instances introduced in TBC (sixteen if you include the newly-added Magister’s Terrace), each of which can be run in Heroic mode where mobs can easily one-shot people other than the tank. And while some of them come with convenient graveyard placement, some do not — and some seem to wind endlessly toward the end so that a “short” corpse run can take 10-15 minutes.
And I do not support a solution that forces me to pay 50 silver to ressurect groupmates. That idea just demonstrates how Blizz-washed we as a class can be, “Okay but if you HAVE to give us a well-needed improvement, make sure it isn’t as good as what everyone else gets!” Keeping the 50 silver cost contributes nothing to balance but just punishes us for choosing the healing role.
OOC res is a reason to bring a paladin/shaman/priest over a druid.
Also, druids = jack of all trades master of none.
You made the point saying Jack of all trades master of none.
Druids are not asking to be master healers thee best at it in the game. That should be reserved for the Holy priest.
but one of the “jacks” of the healing trade is OOC rez and we don’t have it.
Instead we have a less powerful ress that we can use in combat with a massive cooldown.
Unlike other healers who have a powerful out of combat ress that make them better to bring to a group if your worried about wipes.
If your confident that you can heal well in 5 mans and heroics you should not need an out of combat ress. Im aware stuff happens and everyone dies due to something unconctrollable but thats true for priests too.
I’m not saying that we couldnt use one or that this isnt a good idea its just that in my opinion that we dont really need one to be up there with all the other healing classes.
Sorry i didnt make my first sentence clear. We are not the masters of the resssing art like other healers. We can only ress with a reagent and only once every 20 minutes. Blizzard made it useable it battle which gave groups a reason to pick us over a shaman/paladin/priest who can ress out of combat without a cooldown. It should be noted that a battle ress can actually be wipe PREVENTION if the tank dies he can be ressed and it will only cost the group a couple dps while the boss runs wild. On the reagent cost amtter i agree that it costs way too much.
Woops i meant to hit enter somewhere in there.
While I understand the frustrations of not having an OOC rez I have never fully understood the need for it. Yes it sucks that we are the only healer without wipe recovery in a 5 man. It is a definite liability.
But it is not a soul-crushing one. There are popular hybrids with OOC rez (prot pally, enhance shaman, ele shaman, shadow priest) that paranoid 5 mans should group with if they have a druid healer. Personally I consider it part of the flavor as a druid healer, not only do we have to keep the tank alive but we also have to keep the OOC rezzer alive as well. I personally have never lost a spot in a five man due to no rezzer, and if any pug was dumb enough to do so it’s good riddance to bad rubbish.
The mortal strike comment is a bad metaphor but it’s not unreasonable of blizzard to view having one healer not have an OOC rez as flavor. It truly isn’t crippling, and with rebirth as a once-every-twenty-minutes-oops protection. We also have the only universal crowd control in the game, which is doubly unique as a healer. If you see an aggro switch bust it out and save the squishy. To paraphrase Voltaire, equality is the enemy of the good.
Is it fair? No. But fairness is dull.
“By saying Druids are “uniquely disadvantaged” totally disregards the fact you have the unique ability to REZ THE TANK IN THE MIDDLE OF BATTLE. Druids already tank, melee dps, ranged dps, cc, heal, stealth, fly, are immune to poly, can shift out of cc, and yet you are asking for _more_ abilities from other classes? did you ever consider that perhaps druids are not meant to be the best at every facet of this game?”
@Shaman4life: I mean srsly… srsly… Let’s dissect this argument.
“Rez the tank in the middle of battle”? As Anxi pointed out, 9 out of 10 times this is going to do nothing but make it so that the tank is going to die again. With multi-mob pulls in almost every heroic instance, even if your tank can taunt one of these, the rest will inevitably kill the DPSers or the healer (generally right after receiving a battle rez) before returning to the tank ending with a dead tank again. Sorry if I don’t see how that is in any way advantageous.
“Druids already tank, melee dps, ranged dps…heal…”? As was already pointed out, by putting yourself into any of these roles you have locked yourself out of the others (with the exception of melee dps considering the feral tree is geared at both tanking and kitty dps). However, even as a kitty, most people are reluctant to bring in a feral dps over other pure melee dps classes such as rogues, ret pallys, or enhancement shamans. While I have seen some amazing kitty druids in my day, the fact of the matter remains that they will never really be able to push as much dps as their other melee counterparts. Again, only by respeccing (which depending on how much you’ve done this in the past could cost you up to 50g a pop) can you move yourself from one roll to the other. NEWS FLASH: Druids can’t have Tree of Life and Moonkin forms on their bars at the same time, let alone the talents to go with that spec! This is akin to telling a holy pally that he can come to an instance because he’s viable Ret dps.
“cc”? I mean really… really… if you consider Pounce a CC (which lasts for I believe 4 secs), cyclone a CC (Can only be repeatedly cast 3 times before diminishing returns remove it from the table), entangling roots a CC (Only three instances exists where this can be used I believe - ZA, ZG, ZF - and it is perhaps the most easily broken CC in existence), or bash a CC (Like 3 secs total with feral talent) then you really need to rethink your definition of CC. Of course if you’re QQing about Arena here, please, srsly, get over it.
“stealth, fly, are immune to poly, can shift out of cc”? Druid stealth is hardly something to shout about. Rogues easily have a better stealthing ability. They can distract, sap, and vanish if they’re seen. While you might be able to avoid mobs while questing, it really doesn’t do you any good in an instance if the rest of your party can’t stealth. As far as flying goes, “OMG thoze Droods got to be a birdy at 68 and I didn’t!!! QQ!!!” Let’s talk about Warlocks and Pallys and their mounts at level 40. What did they have to do? Oh that’s right, they bought it from the trainer for maybe a gold. Last I checked, you can still buy yourself a flying mount. Immune to poly, can shift out of cc - we can shift out of movement impairing effects which include frostbolt freezing effects, roots, earthbind totem, etc. However, this does not mean that it will not be immediately re-applied to you, meaning that you constantly have to shift forms to move. Also, we still have no way of getting rid of Seal of Justice. This is also not unique to us. While shapeshifting may be, there is no reason that a pally or priest cannot immediately remove a magic slowing effect from themselves. Of course, they cannot remove polymorph from themselves, except a Pally could still bubble out of polymorph. Similarly, a druid cannot in anyway get out of a stun (welcome to Mages and the Blink ability or the Ice Block ability). Again as far as being immune to polymorph goes, how many raid bosses polymorph? Oh wait, that’s right, there’s just the crusty old Shade of Aran in Kara.
Next time you want to bring Arena arguments onto a resto druid blog, please, just don’t. The argument about OOC rez has nothing to do with Arena. As has already been discussed, it is based around 5 mans (specifically heroics) and raid wipes. If you are a raider and you like taking an extra ten minutes to wait and have everyone run back or have to wait for 5 people such that the raid cannot continue until they have gotten back from the graveyard, that is your prerogative. However, I will continue to look for an OOC rez coming the way of druids. Just be happy I didn’t ask for a self-rez.
As for those who have mentioned bringing other hybrid rezzers such as prot pallys, ret pallys, shadow priests, enhancement or elemental shamans, this is just another way to gimp your 5 man group if you do not have a pally tank. None of the hybrid classes have any viable CC (sorry, I don’t consider MC a form of CC as it takes your player out of the game and can only use the mob, is easily broken, and generates ridiculous amounts of threat). CC is essential for most heroics which can have up to 6 mob pulls. Again, if you have a pally tank, that’s great. But there’s no reason that we should be limited to having to run with pally tanks simply because having us in the party forces us to not bring another CC because it has to be a hybrid class which can rez.
“Rezzing is not a class-defining ability. It’s a role-defining ability and part of what we (are supposed to) do.”
I have been opposed to a Druid OOC res since the beginning of WoW. The concept for the Druid class is a hybrid which can specialize in one of as many as four roles (healer, tank, caster dps, melee dps) or switch between them as needed. Our roles are meant to be perhaps as “powerful” as a pure class but NOT as versatile. We are not EVER meant to provide all the utility or even as much utility in a single role as that of a pure class (Priest, Warrior, Mage, Rogue) so you will never see Druids gaining many abilities: damage shield, OOC res, Mortal Strike, Spell Reflect, AoE CC, stunlock, kick, etc. Blizzard is being very careful not to add too much to the Druid repertoire while not making a spec completely non-viable in PvE.
People talking about “uniqueness” of our class and other healing classes and so forth are missing the point. There are plenty of reasons why giving Druids an OOC res would be helpful. Of COURSE it would be HELPFUL. None of them consider the possibility that it’s not really NECESSARY. You cannot claim that that ressing OOC is something that Druids “are supposed to do” as a healing class. We’re not JUST a healing class… get it? Some of the best Druids I’ve ever known are not trees. We’ve survived this long without this spell and we’ll continue to do so.
We keep saying wipe recovery and it’s not. The only class with wipe recovery is the Shaman, who can self rez and then rez the party as well, and the warlock who can soulstone any healer besides a druid to recover after a wipe to save a long run. With a wipe everyone is dead so the healer bless his selfless heart will make the long run in while the rest of the group chats with their friends or goes and gets a drink and waits for the rez. So OOC rez is not wipe recovery it’s stupidity/accident insurance. Mage or rogue that pulls agro and gets 2 shotted by a heroic mob. Hunter who’s cc broke and his feign is resisted, etc etc etc the list goes on and on.
These deaths HAPPEN in heroics they are supposed to happen…the instances were made harder and any minor mistake means a death, not necessarily a wipe but a death a death that with a druid healer means the group will now have to wait for the player to run back. Costing the group time, time a group does not want to wait, and 4 manning in a heroic is not a good idea. The best group in WOW can lose a player to an unlucky resist at the wrong time, now because this group chose a druid healer they must all suffer, and that is a great group let alone a pug. A pug with great players still loses a player here and there during trash pulls just cause stuff happens and it costs that group time, time they could be using for any number of other things. It’s not right, and needs to be addressed.
In a raid no big deal, during a wipe, well now EVERYONE has to run back (lazy SOBS) tough I agree but that is the penalty for a wipe. But random death of one or 2 players during a pull should not cost the group time just because they chose a druid as a healer.
@Lonetree: Unfortunately the “Druids can do too much to deserve to be as good as their parent classes” argument falls flat in the face of Paladins with their Retribution (melee DPS), Protection (tanking), and Holy (healing) trees. Shamans are similarly diverse with roles in magical DPS, melee DPS, and healing. Really, is our ability to spec for one additional role so OMGWTFBBQ Awesome that we should lack the ability to rez when specced for healing?
If Druids got OOC rez, all the other classes should just stop playing because there wouldn’t be a point anymore. The ability to OOC rez is so mindboggling powerful that only three classes should have it. If you have the ability to perform more than 3 roles (Pallys can tank, DPS (HA!) and heal), adding OOC rez to the mix makes you indispensible and would ruin the entire game.
/endsarcasm
The ability to resurrect someone out of combat isn’t game breaking. Lacking the ability on a healer class doesn’t make sense. If you’re a Resto Druid and you’re against OOC rez, I’m curious if in real life you freely accept all the societal limitations placed on you and others. Because this can and should be changed.
I’m sorry, but I will never concede that Druids are “less diverse” in their roles than the other hybrid classes. If you are suggesting that somehow Retribution Paladins are equal to Rogues and that means that a Druid OOC res is not overpowered then there is something sorely lacking in that argument. If you are suggesting that somehow a Paladin tank is always equally as desirable as a Warrior or even a Druid tank than I think that your argument falls flat. I think you misunderstand Bornakk’s comment about Mortal Strike. It’s not about whether MS is a healing ability or not. It’s that Druids are not JUST healers and should not get too many abilities that the other pure classes possess; that is to say that just as Druids can be LIKE warriors/rogues but not have MS or Spell Reflect, we do have other abilities that either equate or at least somewhat compensate for SOME of the things we lack. ie. FF does reduce armor but it’s not a Sunder, Druids can’t wear shields but we do have massive hitpoint pools and can dodge/absorb huge amounts of damage. But we will never, and should never, have too many abilities that make us no different than any other healing class.
Alice is also misunderstanding the concept. Whether we are “disadvantaged” is irrelevant. It’s the battle res that makes US unique. It doesn’t matter how many other classes have an OOC res. We have an in-combat res and that’s the only one we provide. This would be the “master of none” part that everyone ignores when they quote the “jack of all trades” bit. It’s not a perfect res and it shouldn’t be, and it doesn’t need to be and needing another one that works OOC without a long CD is absolutely not necessary. We’ve been doing this for years now and our class is clearly not hurt by not having it. That argument (”who would it hurt”) can go both ways. The Druid community is still thriving in spite of all the little things we can’t do and rationalizing another new ability the value of which is completely subjective to player ability simply proves that it’s not easy to play a Druid and it’s never been so. The way our class is crafted has ALWAYS been tuned for a much more mindful player and noting this now is not news to any long time Druid player. If you want easy mode you play a Paladin, that joke has been around since the game started and it’s always been true that to play a Druid well one must be a somewhat better player than most.
@Lonetree: I don’t want to be less unique. I’m not asking to give up my battle rez (uniqueness factor). I want to be more the same like the other healers and ALSO have a regular Rez. Just like the Shaman doesn’t lose Reincarnate to have hers.
Also, Rogues > Cat Druids > Ret Paladins, but neither Ret Paladins or Kitty cats provide the versatility of the Rogue class. Whether or not Druids are viable Rogue substitutes has nothing to do with the “OPness” of out of combat rez. By its very NATURE, an out of combat resurrection spell cannot be overpowered. It’s out of combat, after all. What I’m saying is that we are not the only class with multiple playstyles available to us … we’re just the only ones that can heal but not resurrect.
The MS thing was a stupid comment by Bornakk. Yes, I understand the intention (the picture above was intended to be humorous), but the two skills aren’t even remotely comparable. One has a tremendous effect on PvP (while still being helpful in PvE). The other … not so much. All of the Bear abilities you describe do help bring Bears closer to their Warrior counterparts but again, are related to combat. Out of combat resurrection isn’t. (And what’s up with Protection Paladins being able to rez when our healing spec can’t?)
There are many reasons that I take pride in my ability as a player, but having a mage get one-shotted and having to walk back 10 minutes because my Rebirth is on CD is not one of them.
“I don’t want to be less unique.”
“I want to be more the same like the other healers”
Nuff said.
I think they should just take all rezzing out of the game. That’ll keep everyone on their toes.
@Lonetree: I was meaning to be funny (who actually says “more the same”?). =) The other three healers have the ability. I don’t know why we have to be special and not.
@Crythia: Good idea. Wait, this seems self-serving to Mages since it places a greater emphasis on crowd control!
GUYS WHEN DO I GET TO REZ IN BEAR FORM
Andural: “bringing hybrid classes that can rez is a non-starter because they don’t bring any form of crowd control.”
This is a sadly myopic view of forming a five man that you need three sources of crowd control to succeed. Are there some dungeons that emphasize it? Sure. Are there ways around it? Absolutely. One of the most memorable pugs I’ve ever ran was a heroic bot with a prot pally, feral druid, warlock, s.priest and resto druid. On paper it looks like SUCH a train wreck but it worked shockingly well with the prot pally holding most of the mobs, the feral druid on the DPS target, and everyone having infinite mana thanks to the s.priest. With lifeblooms rolling on two targets, it didn’t even merit a yawn. We didn’t even drink once.
That’s an extreme example, but running instances with two, or even god-forfend one, CC is possible. Yes it’s more difficult, everyone needs to be more disciplined, but so IMPOSSIBLY difficult that druids should be given an ability that three other classes have to make sure that enough CC can be brought to an instance?
False.
@Bigtoy: I never said that bringing hybrid classes is a non-starter. What I said was, and I quote, “…bringing other hybrid rezzers such as prot pallys, ret pallys, shadow priests, enhancement or elemental shamans, this is just another way to gimp your 5 man group if you do not have a pally tank. None of the hybrid classes have any viable CC…” I did not say that you couldn’t get a group going or that you had to have 3 CCers, a tank, and a healer. HOWEVER, what you HAVE done by bringing in one of these hybrid classes is to ensure that you are going to have 1 less CC to begin with. Again, if you’re running with a pally tank, it really doesn’t matter. Why? Because Pally tanks are the masters of holding on to everything with relatively little effort (YAY CONSECRATE!). However, as any warrior or druid will tell you, tanking upwards of 4 or 5 mobs with little to no CC can be a nightmare, especially with some of the pulls in instances like Magister’s Terrace or Shattered Halls. Again, this doesn’t necessarily mean you MUST HAVE 3 CCers, but you have now lost the ability to do so by being forced to bring a hybrid class in order to have an OOC rez.
The point is that, yes, you can bring a hybrid class. Does this reduce your choices in picking other members for the group - absolutely. However, I think one of the implicit arguments in the OOC debate is that we shouldn’t be forced to bring a hybrid class with us just to make sure that we have a way to rez someone if the get WTFPWNed in a heroic while our Rebirth is on CD.
Andurial: Excellent clarification thank you. You say something else interesting:
“However, I think one of the implicit arguments in the OOC debate is that we shouldn’t be forced to bring a hybrid class with us just to make sure that we have a way to rez someone if the get WTFPWNed in a heroic while our Rebirth is on CD.”
I think that’s a very good summary of the debate. It’s clear that you agree with that statement and I disagree with that statement. I see no problem with one class having an different rez mechanic having an implication on the rest of the group composition. There are all sorts of synergies (hunter & feral tank w/ GOA, rogue & warrior tank w/ WF, s.priest & p.paladin) for 5 mans. OOC rez is a more visible difference of the same mechanic. No one forces you to take a hybrid rezzer, it’s simply an additional degree of risk if you don’t. But I don’t see it as an unacceptable degree of risk.
One member dying in the wtfpwn scenario is one of the most preventable scenarios in the game. Any halfway competent DPSer should be on top of the CC and their threat. Many classes have escapes (ice block, vanish, FD) Failing that, pro tanks can taunt rapidly and pro healers can bubble/NS/etc. If you don’t have an OOC rez then you should be doubly careful. There are SO MANY OUTS that I don’t see how it qualifies as an unacceptable degree of risk. Yes it’s annoying when a pug doesn’t take you because they need a rezzer. But their idiocy doesn’t undermine the game mechanics. Triple CC is never a requirement, more than one wtfpwn death in 20 minutes is totally preventable, and there are differences between healers and rezzing. It’s simply part of the complexity of the game.
I still say it should be a deep resto talent, perhaps in a way that discourages arena or whatever … give druids a debuff called ‘Combat Fatigue’ or whatever that takes a few seconds to wear off, and it’s already practically useless in an arena setting? Just thinking out loud
As for the triple CC, well, that’s a very realistic ‘requirement’ for certain instances in your early 70s, when you’re still gearing up. Shadow Labyrinth, Shattered Halls for example. Which is when you’ll run with random groups the most, too. Seems most people have forgotten that now that they’re outgearing most of the small group content in TBC.
I hope Blizz finds a creative solution for this .. something better than a MS effect on arcane shot *mumbles something about it should’ve been a debuff applied by tranquilizing shot*
It’s not game changing .. it will still require a player of above average skill to max out a druid’s potential, and why not allow healers that spec into it to maximize their service to their group as a whole? Some of us absolutely adore the support role, and anything that expands on that group versatility is great, and does not diminish the value of any other class or spec in any way.
amg mebbe dr00ds not hav hael spellz 2 bcuz that wuld mek tehm 2 much liek oter haelerz.
lolol.
no manaz eiter! jst bandajs.
dirnk a pot nub
onse tey gif duridz 1 tihng tehn haf to giff evrytihng. didn u no??
Okay, that killed my mind to write.
The point is, the idea that we have to get MS because we got an OOC rez is a slippery slope argument. Hunters got MS, I don’t see them suddenly stunlocking or shattering people in their ice traps or draining life.
Giving OOC rez to druids helps the group, not the druid. We can’t OOC rez ourselves.
@Phae - You say taking out rezzing completely is self-serving to mages, but isn’t adding OOC rezzing to Druids self-serving to them as well?
I think the argument for ‘equality’ fails somewhat when, instead of saying “Three out of four healers can OOC res,” you more accurately say “Three out of nine classes can OOC res.”
A few comments called out that OOC rezzing is a role-defining ability - it can’t be, and not just because druids are healers that can’t do it. How can being able to OOC rez someone define a healer, when those classes can respec as DPS or tanks without losing that ability?
It’s a class ability, not a role ability. Ironically enough, this supposedly role-defining ability is only useful when there isn’t enough healing!
Ghostlight - that’s all well and good, but you’re looking at it from the wrong perspective.
It’s bad design. Really. If you were designing a car, What do you think about first when you decide to build one? It isn’t the fluff like the CD player and what colour the seats are going to be.
Build the framework, then pile the fluff on top. Every class that can be called on to perform the “healer” role should have 2 basic capabilities:
1)make players health bars go up
2)pick up dead players whenever it happens.
Now, there is nothing whatsoever that says you can’t get exciting about the implementation of these abilities. Priests get a big pile of different mechanics, shamans get a single-target and a logic-driven raid heal, paladins get sheer lastability and druids get funky HoTs. That’s the make-green-bar-go-up bit sorted out.
The stumbling block is the ‘pick dead player up’ bit. Someone decided to make that our “shiny toy”, only even thought they spent the ‘pick dead players up’ and part of the ’shiny things’ budget on it, they still had to take out a loan (compromise with a 20 minute CD).
Players don’t want to take along a druid to heal if the only res in the group will be on a 20 minute timer. Buyers wouldn’t want a car that could only indicate left by firing a signal flare every 20 minutes, either.
I avoid PuGs because I can get some guildies together - having to deal with res/run whining when I do the occasional PuG MC/AQ/BWL for giggles is enough - I’m not gonna do 5-mans with randoms unless I’ve got a ‘hard’ res.
You can have divine intervention. No really. I won’t mind.
@Bisto - Druids can pick dead people up off the ground, they just do it in a distinctly different way. Just like Rogues have a distinctly different way of CCing mobs than Warlocks - and, yes, in some situations those differences are a liability rather than a boon, like during Heroic Mechanar, or during a 5-man. But at other times you shine far harder than anybody else in that role.
That’s what difference is about.
So yes, I’m coming from a different perspective - you’re saying “why aren’t we the same as them?” rather than asking “why aren’t they as different as we are?” Remember the mass-rez that Pallies were going to get at one point in the beta? That would’ve been a good start!
Imagine if all the healers had different ways of picking people up off the ground just like they all have different ways of healing. That sounds a lot better than everybody having the same way.
Really, I agree on the cooldown being a pain in non-raid situations - but I’d still trade you my rez in a heartbeat for how powerful it can be in a raid.
Haupt: “The best suggestion on how to fix rebirth that I have seen is to keep the requirement for a reagent, IF the spell is used in combat it will trigger the cool down otherwise it just consumes the reagent. This keep battle rez on a cool down if used and forces players to decide if useing the comabt rez is worth the corpse run should it still not same a wipe.”
I really like this idea, can’t believe it was only mentioned once in comments, it lends a lot to the colour of the druid class, and sure you are still going to get complaints either using it or not but that’s all part of the fun.
@Branoc: I’d love being able to Rebirth out of combat and still requiring a reagent. I’d just use Rank 1. ^_^
First, let me say I am ever so happy to find this website, and I’ve enjoyed reading it greatly.
Second, allow me to say that amongst all the arguments here, I have not heard any reasonable argument for a Restoration Druid to not have an OOC rez of some kind. The best argument that is repeatedly issued is “uniqueness” will be lost. The problem with that is that the other 3 healing capable classes all have the ability to rez OOC, and yet I would still laugh at you if you said that they were in no way unique from each other. Even in terms of healing spells and abilities alone, each brings a very unique flavor and style. Each of these classes has weaknesses and strengths which are unique to them regardless of their ability to rez others OOC. Shaman totems, Paladin auras and blessings, and Priest’s Power Word abilities, all separate and define them as well. It is taken for granted that these healers bring people back to life after they die.
The fact is that the lack of an OOC rez makes a Restoration Druid, by default, the least desirable healer in any 5 man PvE content, regardless of player skill, item selection, or content being played. Rebirth, by its nature, has little impact in 5 mans. If the tank dies, casting Rebirth on them only affords them an oppurtunity to die again, since the loss of aggro basically means that the rest of the group will likely be dead, or near it, by the time the tank rejoins the battle in any meaningful sense. There are typically no other healers in 5 man content, aside from the Restoration Druid (obviously if you are tanking or DPSing as a Druid, Rebirth could be used on the healer), so the only way it can be used is to resurrect fallen DPS or CC players.
Being frank, I can count the number of times on 1 hand where I genuinely felt that a promptly cast Rebirth changed the outcome (from failure to success) of an encounter in 5 man content. I do not hesitate to cast the spell if it is available, but it very rarely has such an impact on an encounter as to be considered comparable in value to the ability to rez fallen comrades at will. In raids, the ability is priceless, but most raids have no argument against taking Restoration Druids, and I do not think any player of a Restoration Druid is arguing for an OOC rez from that perspective.
I have seen Restoration Druids passed over many times by players seeking healers in LFG. I have even seen groups elect to take an offspec healer (Shadow Priest) as the healer when a very well geared, specced, and capable Restoration Druid was available, and wanted to go. Their reasoning was the inconvenience of having to take extra time every single time a player died.
Players will have biases, its a fact, and it is the nature of human beings to occassionally hold irrational or poorly reasoned thoughts and feelings towards certain things. The problem here is that there is a sound reason for players to decline to have a Restoration Druid in their groups. Even if 1 believes that Druids are inherently equal to the other healing classes in terms of healing output (many do not), there is no way to justify taking a Restoration Druid as opposed to any other class of healer, even if they are not necessarily as well qualified for the position.
To those who say that an OOC rez is only needed if the group “sucks” or there “isn’t enough healing” being done, its clear you’ve either never played heroic 5 mans, or never played as a healer in 5 mans. People die all the time in 5 mans. Not necessarily as a wipe, just here and there. AoE attacks, certain random effects, broken or resisted CC, and mobs that use CC effects all can result in sudden player deaths that are largely uncontrollable and unavoidable, and these effects are common. You don’t need an OOC rez for wipes really. It arguably takes 5 players roughly the same time to do a corpse run as 1. The difference is waiting 5 to 10 minutes, maybe longer, every time a single player dies. This makes a 30-45 minute run through Heroic Slave Pens into more than an hour, possibly even longer, as players die on pulls later in the instance.
That is my take on the argument.
Rar, I was born a moonkin, but I’ve spent about 40% of my endgame career as resto, and read this place all the time. And for the most part, I completely agree with everything–more power to druids and all of that.
But let’s consider one far-out possibility. Let’s say the world is perfect and Blizzard grants us an OOC rez. What’s to stop an entire party from suiciding into a dungeon and getting a druid to stealth ahead and rez them to the boss/objective they’re trying to reach? As a very rudimentary example, let’s look at Kara Key Frag #2. Warrior Rob wants it but doesn’t feel like getting a group so he just goes commando into the dungeon and lets his best friend Druid Mike rez him all the way to the key.
Combination of an IC and OOC rez can’t be considered overpowered at this point. But what about the combination of Stealth and an OOC rez? How would you suggest combating the exploitation of these two abilities in conjunction?
@Yggdrasil: You pretty much sum up my feelings on the matter. I don’t particularly want my uniqueness to be defined in terms of my deficiencies. Dumbest. Idea. Ever!
@Rosekin: This is actually one of the points I tried to address in my post, Out of Combat Resurrection: