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	<title>Comments on: PTR Report: Drinking to have Increasing Returns</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/</link>
	<description>So many numbers, you'll think you're getting audited</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 06:30:53 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Phaelia</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2586</link>
		<dc:creator>Phaelia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2586</guid>
		<description>@SuraBear: One reason they will likely never remove drinking from Arenas altogether is that, while melee have infinite Energy/Rage, a caster without mana is essentially worthless. No drinking would make mana burns and stings even MORE OP than they currently are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@SuraBear: One reason they will likely never remove drinking from Arenas altogether is that, while melee have infinite Energy/Rage, a caster without mana is essentially worthless. No drinking would make mana burns and stings even MORE OP than they currently are.</p>
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		<title>By: Ermengol</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2578</link>
		<dc:creator>Ermengol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2578</guid>
		<description>If I had an euro for every time I&#039;ve been spell-locked/feared to death..

Anyway, spending 1.5 seconds to keep someone locked down for 3 or even 1.5 doesn&#039;t really look like a bargain to me..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I had an euro for every time I&#8217;ve been spell-locked/feared to death..</p>
<p>Anyway, spending 1.5 seconds to keep someone locked down for 3 or even 1.5 doesn&#8217;t really look like a bargain to me..</p>
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		<title>By: Kitanul</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2568</link>
		<dc:creator>Kitanul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2568</guid>
		<description>I know that, but i never got sheep/fear or CC at all so many time in a single fight. Its just way too abusive. If you can do the same with all the CC spell, they should definetly fix it. I got cycloned in an arena up to 24 times, if we count them all as 9 sec for 2 cyclone, that make 111 total second almost 2 complete minute of doing nothing floating in the air.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that, but i never got sheep/fear or CC at all so many time in a single fight. Its just way too abusive. If you can do the same with all the CC spell, they should definetly fix it. I got cycloned in an arena up to 24 times, if we count them all as 9 sec for 2 cyclone, that make 111 total second almost 2 complete minute of doing nothing floating in the air.</p>
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		<title>By: Ermengol</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2563</link>
		<dc:creator>Ermengol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2563</guid>
		<description>@Kitanul: of course it resets, that&#039;s the idea, so dimishing returns don&#039;t &quot;ban&quot; a spell forever :P Your &quot;infinite&quot; loop could also be 6 seconds cyclone, 15 wait, 6 seconds cyclone.. etc.. as with fear, entangling roots, polymorph, etc. I have yet to see your point here. 

The problem, if there were any, would be about cyclone being balanced or not. It lasts 6 seconds (way less than any other crowd control ability) while, yeah, target can&#039;t be healed, but can&#039;t be harmed either.

Now, if you&#039;re telling me cyclone is bugged and you need less than 15 seconds to do that, that&#039;s a whole different thing :)

@Kaymoo: Brian has a bit of truth there.. I don&#039;t know exactly about rejuvenation, but lifebloom sure has a high chance of keeping you in combat. I&#039;ve found myself waiting for more than usual to get out of combat only to hear a lifebloom explode. Maybe it doesn&#039;t always happen, I haven&#039;t tested it, but it does sometimes.

@everyone: Druids only became so powerful in arena after water was made available. Nerfing water will nerf everybody, but druids have greater ease to drink. Sure, they&#039;ll be able to drink where no one else will, but they&#039;ll get less from it. The tricky part is elves can shadowmeld anyway, so maybe it&#039;ll hurt tauren druids more.

I think it&#039;ll hurt druids more, as drinking is part of many of their teams&#039; strategy. Other classes just happen to drink when they can, but can&#039;t count on it. I&#039;m just guessing though :)

EDIT: I just saw Zenn&#039;s post at the same time as mine. I only want to add the 15 seconds counter begins as soon as the effect ends, not begins. So you have to wait 15 seconds after cyclone wears off (unless it&#039;s not working propperly). Rogues know this well as they can&#039;t use kidney shot (6 seconds, 20 seconds cooldown) immediately after the previous one, they have to wait 1 second or they waste their combo points in a 3-second stun </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kitanul: of course it resets, that&#8217;s the idea, so dimishing returns don&#8217;t &#8220;ban&#8221; a spell forever <img src='http://www.resto4life.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' />  Your &#8220;infinite&#8221; loop could also be 6 seconds cyclone, 15 wait, 6 seconds cyclone.. etc.. as with fear, entangling roots, polymorph, etc. I have yet to see your point here. </p>
<p>The problem, if there were any, would be about cyclone being balanced or not. It lasts 6 seconds (way less than any other crowd control ability) while, yeah, target can&#8217;t be healed, but can&#8217;t be harmed either.</p>
<p>Now, if you&#8217;re telling me cyclone is bugged and you need less than 15 seconds to do that, that&#8217;s a whole different thing <img src='http://www.resto4life.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>@Kaymoo: Brian has a bit of truth there.. I don&#8217;t know exactly about rejuvenation, but lifebloom sure has a high chance of keeping you in combat. I&#8217;ve found myself waiting for more than usual to get out of combat only to hear a lifebloom explode. Maybe it doesn&#8217;t always happen, I haven&#8217;t tested it, but it does sometimes.</p>
<p>@everyone: Druids only became so powerful in arena after water was made available. Nerfing water will nerf everybody, but druids have greater ease to drink. Sure, they&#8217;ll be able to drink where no one else will, but they&#8217;ll get less from it. The tricky part is elves can shadowmeld anyway, so maybe it&#8217;ll hurt tauren druids more.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;ll hurt druids more, as drinking is part of many of their teams&#8217; strategy. Other classes just happen to drink when they can, but can&#8217;t count on it. I&#8217;m just guessing though <img src='http://www.resto4life.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>EDIT: I just saw Zenn&#8217;s post at the same time as mine. I only want to add the 15 seconds counter begins as soon as the effect ends, not begins. So you have to wait 15 seconds after cyclone wears off (unless it&#8217;s not working propperly). Rogues know this well as they can&#8217;t use kidney shot (6 seconds, 20 seconds cooldown) immediately after the previous one, they have to wait 1 second or they waste their combo points in a 3-second stun</p>
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		<title>By: Zenn</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2562</link>
		<dc:creator>Zenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2562</guid>
		<description>Kitanul, I believe you are misunderstanding the mechanics of diminishing returns.  The diminishing returns do &#039;reset&#039;, but only after 15 seconds from when you finished casting the spell.  If you cast it once, you get six seconds.  If you then cast it again on that target right as it wears off, it should last about 3 seconds.  Meaning that the target has been cycloned for a total of nine seconds.  If you then waited over a dozen seconds after the effect wears off that target, then tried to cast it on that person again, it would last the full six seconds again.

So, you can in theory cyclone a target (and only one target) for perhaps 9 every so often, we just have to wait about a dozen seconds in between.  So, we cannot keep someone cycloned infinitely, but if the fight lasts long enough, we can restart that _cycle_ again and again, yes.  

Other crowd control works the same way.  For example, in PvP, a mage can keep someone polymorphed for a sliver longer during that same period, with just one cast.  So, if you feel that cyclone is &#039;bullshit&#039;, then you might want to read up on the crowd control options of other classes :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kitanul, I believe you are misunderstanding the mechanics of diminishing returns.  The diminishing returns do &#8216;reset&#8217;, but only after 15 seconds from when you finished casting the spell.  If you cast it once, you get six seconds.  If you then cast it again on that target right as it wears off, it should last about 3 seconds.  Meaning that the target has been cycloned for a total of nine seconds.  If you then waited over a dozen seconds after the effect wears off that target, then tried to cast it on that person again, it would last the full six seconds again.</p>
<p>So, you can in theory cyclone a target (and only one target) for perhaps 9 every so often, we just have to wait about a dozen seconds in between.  So, we cannot keep someone cycloned infinitely, but if the fight lasts long enough, we can restart that _cycle_ again and again, yes.  </p>
<p>Other crowd control works the same way.  For example, in PvP, a mage can keep someone polymorphed for a sliver longer during that same period, with just one cast.  So, if you feel that cyclone is &#8216;bullshit&#8217;, then you might want to read up on the crowd control options of other classes <img src='http://www.resto4life.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kitanul</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2561</link>
		<dc:creator>Kitanul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2561</guid>
		<description>I know that Llanion, but like i said, ive tryed it, and if you get ur timing right. The diminishing return like &#039;reset&#039; so you can cyclone again for 6, then for 3, wait again and it go back to 6 second than 3, than 6 than 3..... for an infinite time. Ive done it so i know what is it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that Llanion, but like i said, ive tryed it, and if you get ur timing right. The diminishing return like &#8216;reset&#8217; so you can cyclone again for 6, then for 3, wait again and it go back to 6 second than 3, than 6 than 3&#8230;.. for an infinite time. Ive done it so i know what is it.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaymoo</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2560</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaymoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2560</guid>
		<description>@Brian
This is actually going to HURT Druids more than any other class. When the 2.4 changes go through, if you have a HOT ticking on someone in combat, then you are in combat too. Not more tossing on a Rejuv then hiding…

Are you serious? That would be totally lol, because it would also put, say, a priest in combat whenever his shield was hit or his renew ticked. Paladins already don&#039;t drink that often, as well as Shamans (who plays a restoshaman in highrated arena anyways?)
In other news, I just hit lvl 68 with my drood and now roam the skies over shattrath, looking for a prey... TO BEAR BOMB UPON :O</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brian<br />
This is actually going to HURT Druids more than any other class. When the 2.4 changes go through, if you have a HOT ticking on someone in combat, then you are in combat too. Not more tossing on a Rejuv then hiding…</p>
<p>Are you serious? That would be totally lol, because it would also put, say, a priest in combat whenever his shield was hit or his renew ticked. Paladins already don&#8217;t drink that often, as well as Shamans (who plays a restoshaman in highrated arena anyways?)<br />
In other news, I just hit lvl 68 with my drood and now roam the skies over shattrath, looking for a prey&#8230; TO BEAR BOMB UPON :O</p>
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		<title>By: Llanion</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2556</link>
		<dc:creator>Llanion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2556</guid>
		<description>I saw the changes and was thinking &quot;Oh, geez, that&#039;s going to make Attumen actually a challenge!&quot; but it appears I was mistaken, if the ramping mechanics work as described.

Kit: You&#039;re mistaken, I&#039;m afraid. Cyclone is affected by (afflicted with? :P) Diminishing Returns. This means that it lasts its full duration (six seconds) on a target the first time it is cast. If you cast it again on the same target within fifteen seconds of the spell ending, it lasts half the original duration (3 seconds). If you cast it /again/ within fifteen seconds of that ending, it lasts 1.5 seconds... and until you let fifteen seconds go by after the end of that third cast, that target becomes immune to Cyclone. 

So, yeah, we can really mess someone up if the timing&#039;s right, but we can hardly lock someone down &#039;infinitely&#039; (the best we can do, if we dropped chain-casts perfectly, is to lock them out of a fight for the first 10.5 out of 25.5 seconds).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw the changes and was thinking &#8220;Oh, geez, that&#8217;s going to make Attumen actually a challenge!&#8221; but it appears I was mistaken, if the ramping mechanics work as described.</p>
<p>Kit: You&#8217;re mistaken, I&#8217;m afraid. Cyclone is affected by (afflicted with? <img src='http://www.resto4life.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> ) Diminishing Returns. This means that it lasts its full duration (six seconds) on a target the first time it is cast. If you cast it again on the same target within fifteen seconds of the spell ending, it lasts half the original duration (3 seconds). If you cast it /again/ within fifteen seconds of that ending, it lasts 1.5 seconds&#8230; and until you let fifteen seconds go by after the end of that third cast, that target becomes immune to Cyclone. </p>
<p>So, yeah, we can really mess someone up if the timing&#8217;s right, but we can hardly lock someone down &#8216;infinitely&#8217; (the best we can do, if we dropped chain-casts perfectly, is to lock them out of a fight for the first 10.5 out of 25.5 seconds).</p>
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		<title>By: News from the PTR : Drinking Change &#124; Healer LFG</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2555</link>
		<dc:creator>News from the PTR : Drinking Change &#124; Healer LFG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2555</guid>
		<description>[...] like Druids think alike, I took my daily trip over to Resto4Life and found another article about this change, although our thoughts on it differ  Phaelia managed to dig up more details about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] like Druids think alike, I took my daily trip over to Resto4Life and found another article about this change, although our thoughts on it differ  Phaelia managed to dig up more details about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kitanul</title>
		<link>http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-2552</link>
		<dc:creator>Kitanul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resto4life.com/2008/02/12/ptr-report-drinking-to-have-increasing-returns/#comment-2552</guid>
		<description>Hi, im not posting about this news really, but ive seen lately(in arena) druid can cyclone to an infinite. I mean how is that permitted? Im a druid healer myself and i just found that out and im like, WHAT THE HELL.
Thanks.

And no i didnt miss-see or anything. I know what im talking about, ive tested it and thats a damn OP bullshit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, im not posting about this news really, but ive seen lately(in arena) druid can cyclone to an infinite. I mean how is that permitted? Im a druid healer myself and i just found that out and im like, WHAT THE HELL.<br />
Thanks.</p>
<p>And no i didnt miss-see or anything. I know what im talking about, ive tested it and thats a damn OP bullshit.</p>
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