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Visiting the Druid forums today is a lot like visiting the Warlock forums used to be. There are a surprising number of posts calling for nerfs to the viability of Restoration in 2v2 and 3v3 Arenas. The most acerbic outcries seem to come from Mages, Paladins, and even Warlocks (who seem all too happy to see another class be subject to so much player complaint). On the first page of the official U.S. forums, you will find the following posts:
- “Time to man up druids.”
- “Every class worse then resto druid.”
- “Nerf Druids”
- “NERF THESE NOOBS”
- “Nerf duridz”
Even worse, the nerf-callers are monopolizing already limited Blue attention. Here are the post titles from 5 of the last 10 Blue-tagged posts in the official Druid forums:
- “Improve/nerf different druids.”
Improvements are requested for Feral spec. You can guess which spec he wants nerfed. - “Ending the 2v2/3v3 dominance of Druids”
- “Cooldown on Cyclone is needed”
- “Blizz nerf TRAVEL form”
- “IDIOTIC IDEA!”
Goes on to explain that Druids shouldn’t have access to so much crowd control.
Crowd control (primarily in the form of Cyclone) isn’t the only complaint. Players complain that it’s too easy for us to shift out of snares, too hard for them to spell interrupt us due to insta-cast HoTs, and that it’s too easy for us to get away and drink, increasing our longevity beyond that of many other healers. Of course, all of these complaints are null and void in 5v5 Arena where there are too many opponents to avoid anyone for long. But really, how “overpowered” are we? From Arena Class Breakdown data from Realm History, we see:
- At 16%, Druids are the second most populous class in 1850+ rated 2v2 (following Warriors).
- At 31%, Druids are the most populous class in 2200+ rated 2v2.
- At 11%, Druids are the fifth most populous class in 1850+ rated 3v3 (preceded by Priests in 3rd place).
- At 13%, Druids are the third most populous class in 2200+ rated 3v3 (preceded by Priests in 1st place).
- At 6%, Druids are the 8th most populous class in 1850+ rated 5v5 (preceding only Hunters in last place).
- At 4%, Druids are the 8th most populous class in 2200+ rated 5v5 (preceding only Rogues in last place).
Really the only problematic bracket I see is upper-end 2v2 (2200+). Even in the 1850+ range of 2v2, four out of the five top contenders exist within 1 percentage point of one another. This isn’t to say that I don’t feel that we Druids are very strong contenders in smallscale Arenas. I’m even willing to concede a very strong indication of overpoweredness in upper-end 2v2. But even in 3v3, we’re usurped by Priests (we also exist within 1 percentage point of those in 3rd, 4th, and 5th places). And our 5v5 ratings are simply abysmal.
Some players (usually Paladins and Priests) have suggested making Cyclone dispellable. This is, unfortunately, one of the only reasons Druids are brought to 5v5 Arenas. Another suggestion is to move Feral Charge further down the Feral tree, making it inaccessible to Restoration-specced Druids. This change wouldn’t be too horrible/nonsensical, but I also don’t think it would have a tremendous effect. (thoughts? opinions? Megan?) Some have asked that a cooldown be applied to shapeshifting, greatly reducing our ability to escape snares and put distance between ourselves and our opponents. While I think this would be a devastating change in smallscale Arenas, it would have likely have limited effect on 5v5 where our kiting abilities are already mitigated by the number of opponents we face. One of the most devastating suggestions is to make some or all Arenas considered indoors. Unfortunately, any Arena considered “indoors” is virtually a guaranteed loss for the Druid and her teammate(s). Thankfully Blizzard doesn’t typically like to enforce such binary game balance.
I really have a hard time thinking of anything that could be changed about the way our class/spec works that would reduce our effectiveness in 2v2 Arenas without completely destroying our performance in 5v5 (or, even worse, PvE). And any compensatory buff made to the class/spec in 5v5 would inevitably be too powerful in smaller brackets. Short of a complete class overhaul (no, thank you) in which we’re made to fit the mold of another healer like the Priest, Paladin, or Shaman, I don’t see how Blizzard could adjust the Restoration Druid. Nor do I think that doing so is a real necessity. A game in which populations are evenly distributed among all classes and bracket sizes would feel too homogenized. Having classes have one or two areas in which they shine is an enjoyable part of Arena competition.
Personally, I think we should all make Waffles and call it good.
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*hugs* .-= Softi´s last blog ..Dum di dum di dum =-.
As a Hunter, I hate the ‘make arenas indoors’ suggestion. The only way my pet catches people is because of Beastial Swiftness, which only applies outdoors.
Seems like a cooldown on shapeshifting could be devastating in PVE, too.
My favorite ‘nerf druid’ thread I’ve seen on the forums was the (tounge-in-cheek) cry for nerfing ’soothe beast’ because someone saw a Druid making beasts not aggro in one of the Eco-domes in Netherstorm
Honestly, I hope that Blizz doesn’t do anything to class balance for a while. 2.3 changed a lot of things, and I think it still needs some time to shake out.
“Another suggestion is to move Feral Charge further down the Feral tree, making it inaccessible to Restoration-specced Druids. This change wouldn’t be too horrible/nonsensical, but I also don’t think it would have a tremendous effect. (thoughts? opinions? Megan?)”
I don’t know how high rank druids play, but I think it could possibly cause an impact. As a PvE restro druid, I don’t have feral charge, so I’m unable to really comment much on it. However, I do know in one 2v2 two team we went up against a PvP restro druid (straight 8/11/42 build) and boy that druid was a bugger! We lost to that one. He feral charged me a couple times during that fight; that was a killer.
I think the key problem here is the role switching. Druids have always complained about not being able to be in any real situation that required any true constant role shifting. They always said: if druids can be true role shifters, they’d be unstoppable. Well … Arenas, small groups, have allowed druids to be true role shifters. Now, the other classes aren’t happy.
This is way off-topic, but I suddenly felt compelled to say that I really love your blog layout, it’s so clean and crisp and bright.
To stay on topic, well-played druids are very, very hard for me to beat in PvP. Such an exhilarating fight though, even if they usually outlast me. I rather like the way they are now– I don’t think I’d want them to be nerfed. Besides, no doubt a lot of people want to nerf us hunters, too.
Honestly, the best ’suggestion’ I’ve seen to fix resto druids might have been to remove Star’s Tears from the game, or at least make them harder to obtain. It’s easier for us to get a drink off in 2v2 with shapeshifting from snares, and it’s even less detrimental to our partner and ourselves because we’ve got those HoTs ticking.
Supposedly, at least. I’m not exactly someone who cares for arena.
I wouldn’t mind seeing some buffs to other classes, but not many care to look at the overall scope anyway, which is that 2v2 is not the only arena. Blizzard says they balance around 5’s, but aside from that people are too caught up wanting to be good wherever they venture and do not care to go where they tend to excel. Would you place a combat field medic in an aircraft during a war?
Umm, well, I jsut got sidetracked for a few minutes, so I forgot my overall train of thought … But I just wanted to say if they nerf my raid healing because of 2v2, there’s going to be an awful lot of druids who don’t usually comment in those threads commenting. Saw it happen earlier today when someone proposed a debuff when a lifebloom blooms, preventing the player from having the spell cast on him for anywhere from 5-10 seconds. Shot down pretty quick from those that raid. I’m sorry, but in my 6 second casting window, I don’t want to spend time throwing lifeblooms on raid members that can’t receieve the spell – this is especially true with multiple restos.
Okay, I don’t really know where I’m going with this anymore, so I’ll just be quiet for now. And since this is my first time commenting, I love this blog
Edit: I’m guessing it’s cause I subscribed after posting this comment, but come on gravatar, load my avatar! Maybe they just have a slow refresh time, hehe.
Double Edit: Quick thing – I think you’ve got a typo in the bullet list. You’ve got 1850 2v2 listed twice; I’m guessing the second one is supposed to be 3v3.
I care a lot about PvP as you can see on my blog and I have almost 120 days of played on my druid, since day 1 of the release (I switch on my shaman at BC). When I think that people has been laughing two straight years on restauration druid and now, for those same people, we “need” to be nerfed. That’s simply stupid.
They should :
> Give more mobility for some other classes (For exemple a shaman can’t complain on druid mobility, we have the tools to make them stop).
> More and more and more maps with some random indoor ones (oh shit! factor)
> As said by Nilianil : Remove Star’s tears from the game
This should be sufficient to make druids more “balanced” in arenas.
I have recently started playing 2v2 with a warlock and I have to say that I find it considearably easy to win games, even with not much pvp experience.
However, there are some cases where I am absolutely PWNED. For example when I face a rogue that keeps me stun locked and just cuts me fast to pieces or when I am against a hunter+scorpid who can fast drain my mana and leave me running around oom.
People need to learn to play and learn to accept their class’s weeknesses against other classes.
Put CD in our CC and make arena indoors? How about fear then or stun lock or sheep? How would they like it if these abilities had cooldowns or made unavalaible indoors? Would they stand a chance then?
These are just lame excuses from people that want everything for themselves…
I read the druid forums and feel a mixed set of emotions.
On one hand, I see a lot of druids uniting together to refute what trolls are saying (and yes, I have yet to see a “nerf” thread that wasn’t some form of trolling), and coming up with unique and quirky ways to keep their spirits up.
On another hand, there are some druids agreeing with the posters. These are most often ferals who feel slighted that they are not as arena viable as a restoration spec, and these are sometimes druids operating under “Battered Druid Syndrome.”
On one hand, I appreciate the Blue attention. It means they know there is a problem with the druid forums and are trying to work to clear it.
On the other hand, trolls will see the increased Blue activity as a way to perhaps get their voice heard, as (generally) trolls do what they do for attention.
Many times, the forums are just really depressing. I try to avoid any thread I can about nerfs and simply help anyone with questions and problems. It’s saving some of my gramatical dignity, at least.
After reading lots of post about nerfs, QQ, etc, one thing I noted is that most of the QQers (or at least all that I’ve read) are lower ranked in arena. And sometimes they are even flamed as L2killDruids by other classes in our own druid forums O.o.
Now as a personal opinion (I’m a resto druid
) I’ve found a lot of players that know how to effectively kill or disable a druid, the issue is that given or unique abilities, the ways to do that are quite different to fighting other classes and requires more than just 2 button bashing, requires timing, coordination and deceive sometimes. (Btw, i hate some meeles and fears -.-)
Anyway, i think one viable solution would be to remove star tears
Nerfing Resto druids because of an arena advantage is both unfair and unwanted. The orginal post already points out that druids don’t have a niche in any of the brackets or ratings. Is a resto PVP druid a pain to take down? Yes but not impossible. I personnaly feel that any nerf to druids is stupid.
I really only think Nerfs happen because the trolls on the forum complain and whine enough such that they convince Blizzard that there exists a problem. Nerfing an ability for arena balance will have a direct effect on pve balance. People refuse to see a bigger picture when it comes to WoW. They are only interested in themselves. Its PVP, and some classes will always have an advantage in situations.
On a side note: Great BLOG! Love you style of writing.
Brunnor ( Horde Gorgonnash) Feral Druid!
I would not bother too much or go defensive too much. The forums are a great place for people who find it easier to complain about a class than to try and work around it and find an answer.
On the other hand: THEY HAVE TO CRY THERE, else they are basicly saying “I suck and are unwilling to work with the current situation”. These people are never happy, rather complain than have a good time and will cry nerf for every class they lose to, which is basicly most of them.
There are many counters to druids and only people with lots of skill are able to ‘exploit’ the better classes and become #1. Most forumpeople are people sitting in the 1400-1800 (like me!) range and really should be quiet on calling nerfes.
…your picture makes me want to yell “Travel form away!! Travel form away!!”
seriously, nothing is wrong with druids in arena. the whole POINT of arena is for the exploitation of class disparities.
as a rogue, i have 0 trouble controlling resto druids in arena matches. stunlocking, imp kick, prep-imp sprint, and imp deadly throw (spell interrupt with arena gloves) are the perfect counters.
every class has at least 1 nemesis. should rogues qq about ms warriors? take your cleaves and whirlwinds like a man and just understand that your greatest assets against most other classes become your weaknesses against warriors (dodge = overpower, fast melee attacks = unending rage).
@Mike: I hadn’t considered how the shapeshifting cooldown would affect PvE, but you’re right. Many Druids use Furor to power shift and get back Energy/Rage. Not to mention shifting out of Tree Form to decurse and then switching back.
@Akia: I think you really hit the nail on the head. In smallscale Arenas, Druid versatility really shines. We have so many — somewhat less effective — tools at our disposal (Stealth, Stuns, CC, heals, mobility, decursing) that are unfortunately best leveraged by our caster form(s). Great observation.
@Pike: Thank you so much! I only just discovered your blog yesterday (added it to my blogroll but haven’t featured it yet), but I’m really enjoying it. And your avatar and pictures are completely awesome. I really feel like I must be missing out on “glory days” of Druid PvP since my husband and I haven’t played at all during Season 3. I was never *especially* good, capping out at 1910 one week but staying pretty solidly in the 1800s the rest of the time. I fear that when I do return, our effectiveness may have be reduced!
@Nilianil: I forgot about the Star’s Tears suggestion. That IS interesting and would definitely turn the tables. I know there have been some matches where I’ve been able to drink 2 or 3 times (never to full, but it helps). Travel Form Star’s Tears Shadowmeld = Win, imo. =) And I would be extremely upset if PvE effectiveness were reduced for the sake of PvP. The idea to make Lifebloom blooms prevent you from reapplying is just absolutely moronic and would completely counter the idea behind the spell in the first place (it’s supposed to serve as a dispel discouragement; a change like that would ENCOURAGE dispellers to remove your LB and force it to bloom). And thanks for the correction!
@Dajay: I don’t think that making some Arenas indoors would be fair. It would require too drastic a change in playstyle that other classes do not have to consider (except for perhaps Hunters as Pike mentions). It would, in effect, give teams with Druids on them one fewer player … or at least 75% less of one.
@Dimitris: I also had a lot of problems dealing with Rogues. They turn all purple and ninja like and I just know I’m headed to beatdown town. I agree that additional restrictions on Cyclone (which already is among the CC with the worst DR) would be unfair without similar restrictions on Fear, Sheep, etc.
@Bellwether: That’s an interesting observation about Ferals cheering on the nerfing of Restoration viability in Arenas. That makes me a sad Druid. Intra-class conflict is a sad part of the Druid forums but luckily I don’t see much of it in the blogosphere. I personally think it’s a real injustice that Feral should be so unviable in Arena-style PvP (I understand they fare well in Battlegrounds) since many Ferals were likely attracted to the spec because of a desire to kill other players. Feral definitely needs some help, and I don’t think it’s too much to expect since it would be fairly simple to allow access to special PvP-oriented skills at the bottom of the Feral tree that wouldn’t also affect Restos.
@Kringol: I think you’re right. Druids fill such a unique niche that you have to learn alternative methods of dealing with them that aren’t necessary for other players (ex. Judgement of Justice). Just as it took Druids time to learn the limits of their abilities, it is taking players some time learning to capitalize upon those limitations.
@Bruennor: It will be distressing if the trolls do win out in the end. At the same time, I watched a lot of Blue posts in the Warlock forums locking nerf and troll threads, and they were eventually taken down a notch (MS affecting Lifedrain, for instance). I guess I share your fear that enough complaints — however unfounded they may seem to us — may not be entirely falling upon deaf ears. Hopefully Kalgan (known to play a PvP Warrior) has a Druid partner. Then we’ll know for sure we’re safe!! And thank you for the compliments! =)
@Zhero: I guess I Don’t understand WHY PEOPLE GO TO THE FORUMS OF THE CLASS THEY WANT NERFED. I would NEVER go post on the Paladin forums about how Judgement of Justice is a movement-impairing effect, regardless of what the tooltip says (it is. dammit.), although I have seen many a Druid do so. Are they looking for SUPPORT? For players of that class to admit “Hey, you know you’re right.” Even if they did, it would likely be followed with, “And nanny nanny boo boos, it’s not changing.” More and more, I don’t enjoy visiting the official forums.
@Bellwether: HAHAHA … I so should have used cheetah form for that picture. Maybe it’s on cooldown.
@Doomilias: /hate Rogues; Valenna beats me quite soundly when we duel. I think you guys are even tougher than Warriors (who somehow, manage to scare me more). Great point about class counters. 2v2 by its very nature is destined to be less balanced than larger Arenas.
Druids are the only healer that can’t remove diseases.
Shifting some debuffs from poison/curse to diseases would change the playing field
I agree, indoor arenas would be a bad idea. Druids do rely heavily on the outdoor option, but we’re not the only class affected by indoor/outdoor differences. I think other classes aren’t thinking straight when calling for that option. It would be an enormous impact on PvP if that were allowed. Massively on druids. More than just massive, it would be devastating.
Re: the issue as a whole, but specifically this line in Phaelia’s comment…
“And I would be extremely upset if PvE effectiveness were reduced for the sake of PvP.”
It happens all the time, and this is why I hate PvP.
Personally, I don’t enjoy playing PvP. Call me “unskilled” that I don’t like playing against opponents who can think for themselves in a constantly changing environment. Part of it certainly does come down to that because I’ve never learned how to PvP. But bottom line is that I don’t enjoy it, and I do enjoy PvE, so I play the part of the game that I enjoy.
However, the real reason that I “hate” PvP is that PvP and PvE are two completely separate entities, forced into one game. Blizzard is constantly making changes to all the classes, buffing them, nerfing them, whatever. Sometimes it’s for PvP reasons, sometimes it’s for PvE reasons. But it’s very rare that the change does not, in some way, affect both. Fortunately, there’ve been no real changes to druids that affect the way I play. Other classes, however, aren’t so lucky.
My husband plays a warlock. Patch day was never a happy time in our home.
2v2 has ALWAYS been more dependent on different class/spec combos than ANY other arena. I have heard this complaint from hardcore PvPers on many forums since day 1. Back in the earlier seasons pallys and wars were considered the most annoying 2v2 groups because most of us were still in raid/stam gear (i still remember people going in with full green stam gear with like 10-15k health back in the beginning of S1) and were allot more concentrated on burst dps than they are now. Things change. When someone complains about somthing in 2v2 i just hit mute inside my head. I also find it funny that warlocks have been complaining since lock and resto druid is just as powerful as war/resto. I never liston to such incoherent babblings but as much as the devs say they are not sueded by such posts, you still wonder at the end of the day.
My solution is pretty easy: remove the 2v2 bracket. It’s pretty much proven to be impossible to balance in the scope of the greater game beyond arenas, and I’d hate to see a resto nerf for PVP that in any way reduces our viability in raids at the moment (we already have stacking issues compared to other healers). Replace it with 4s or something.
Alternately, this could lead to an argument for separate rule sets in PVP and PVE, though I think the game is too far along to make that kind of change. I’m also not sure Blizzard would do so anyhow.
@Werebeef: While I wouldn’t object to more disease-based debuffs, Druids are already quite disadvantaged by their inability to dispel magic-based debuffs, so I’m not sure a further handicap in that “Arena” is really necessary. I know that playing paired with a Warrior, you are highly susceptible to having your Warrior locked down for long periods since you can’t free him from Polymorph/Fear/Roots/Frost Nova.
@Nasirah: I somewhat enjoy PvP. Enough to have competed for a long period in Season 2 but not so much that I am not enjoying my current hiatus. As someone married to a player who LOOOOOOOOOOOVES PvP, however, I can’t say that I don’t think it has a place in the game, although I agree that it certainly causes a fair number of balance issues. I remember in EverQuest (1) PvP being added as more or less an afterthought. There didn’t seem to be any concern for balance, and there were just some classes destined to defeat everyone else. In order to make the game fun for as many different types of people as possible (which Blizzard seems to strive for), they have to adjust some things for PvP. It’s still no fun to be on the receiving end of a PvP-based “change”, though. =(
@Zackoria: That’s a good point about Warrior/Paladin. I know at the beginning of Season 2, that pair provoked a LOT of expletives. When we finally started beating them, it was a cause for much celebration (including victory dances around the apartment). I, too, am surprised at the vitriol from Warlocks. Maybe they associate the Druid’s method of healing over time with their form of damage over time and feel that misery would some company.
@Saba: Eek! I would be very disappointed with Blizzard were they to remove the 2v2 bracket. It’s certainly the most popular bracket with players, especially the casual ones. And there’s just something extra fun about going into an Arena with your husband/significant other/best friend and “taking on the world” (of Warcraft) together!
Faxmonkey wins the internets with his startlingly coherent post on druids!
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4028099734&sid=1&pageNo=1
We did get Natural Perfection but it doesn’t count as overpowered because no body cries about it.
At the end of the day it’s all about the warriors, no one talks about the other half of the “God mode” team, and unlike druids is very well represented in ALL brackets from 1850-2300.
I play a holy Paladin, Lovemace, Blackrock Alliance.
I don’t think a direct druid nerf would be the answer. The class is very fun to play (I’m levelling a druid through outland atm), and although very powerful they do have their weaknesses in small group pvp. They are squishy, and if you manage to get JoJ on them (and they don’t have a defensive dispel ready) you can control and burst them down relatively easily. I haven’t lost to a druid/warr team when playing with a warrior in a long time.
I do know that it is still a tough lineup against very good druids – those who know to stay away from the Paladin at all costs. This indicates, to me, that while the class may be somewhat imbalanced in small-scale pvp, there are also a lot of very good druid players. Skill does still shine through.
As a Paladin I find the power of druids in 2s frustrating, but I don’t think a direct nerf to druids is the best option…I’d rather see the mechanics of the other healing classes changed/updated. Priests are quite strong at the moment, and they definately have a place/role that is competitive with druids. I think that the mechanics of Paladins in particular (but also resto shamans) are outdated and not really suited to the current climate of pvp. Sure we can be powerful in pvp, largely due to the utility of BoF, BoP and our 12 seconds of immunity. However in the endurance game of 2s and to a lesser extent 3s, our lack of instant cast heals (leading to susceptibility to interrupts/cc) and the recent nerfs to BoF and BoSac do leave us rather limited. While we do have amazing longevity in heals, the increasing efficacy of drain classes pretty much counters that as well.
So getting to the reason for this quick analysis of Paladin faults on a druid blog – nerfing druids won’t improve the arena experience so much for Paladins, as the crappy mechanics of the class will still remain. Those healers posting for druid nerfs should be posting for buffs for themselves imo.
Also, I disagree that removing the pvp water from the game would balance druids. Should they do that, I would quit pvp on my paladin. Drains are just so powerful now, and although we have great longevity while we have mana, we have few means other than LoS to protect our mana pool, and virtually no means to regenerate any meaningful amount of mana once it is drained. Removing water in arena would make paladins a joke to play, and no doubt would adversely affect other classes in arena too.
But anyway, sorry about the rant! Nice blog, btw
My self as a 100% resto druid find it hard to take down any class in pvp. This may be because all my points are in resto and none in feral or balance. Although I can keep myself alive with 2 or 3 DPS classes nuking me!! Must piss them off.
Druids Rock!
Any sugestions to a good resto build mail me at: ad_fringa@live.com